Posted by Face on May 7, 2008 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Interesting, the logic is other students violate laws/regulations why pick on these kids? I guess that 'argument' could be used any time someone is busted for something? Then all of these kids had 'someone' else file their online application. This is nonsensical, an individual who is unable to file an online application to a JC has no business attending. Big IF however, if the coach was the one who filed their applications, then he is guilty of a crime to defraud the State of California. The kids and possibly their parents knew they were not paying out of state tuition, the difference is too huge to claim ignorance. The only thing kids learn from organized sports anymore it seems is that fraud is O.K. or that they are above the rules that are for the rest.

Posted by Face on May 7, 2008 at 7:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sense of entitlement is what I should have said, and that is also evident in their huge lawsuit.

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 7:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Now maybe this will force the Ventura County Community College District, to find out who is REALLY at fault for this whole mess! It is an absolute crime how these two basketball teams have been treated this past season! Ventura is so focused on the coaches, but we all know that the problem lies at a higher level. Correct me, if I am wrong but wasn't the same leadership place last time there was a basketball scandal. Maybe that is where the independent investigator hired by the district and the Ventura County District Attorney's Office should be focusing there attention!!! Leave the coaches and players alone and fix the problem.
Has for you Robin Calote you should be ashamed of yourself for what YOU have done to the remaining players of this 2008 championship team. Even without the suspended players they WON there conference! But you made DAMN sure they were to get NO glory. By putting the coaches of leave with a no contact order two days before there Award Banquet was to be held subsequently canceling the banquet. You couldn’t wait till the day after could you. WAY TO TREAT YOUR CHAMPIONS ROBIN!!!!!

Posted by Deek56 on May 7, 2008 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nice post Face...I couldn't agree with you more.

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 8:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Face I know each and every one of these kids. All they want to do is play basketball at the highest level possible. They were not out to defraud anybody. They are all good KIDS far from home that didn’t do a damn thing to any of us! Maybe the claim against the VCCCD will force the powers to be, to get to the bottom of this whole thing once and for all.

Posted by madmilt on May 7, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"They are all good KIDS far from home..." (jim.nelson)

EXACTLY... They knew they weren't residents of California. Ignorance is a hard alibi to believe. And if they are 18 years old, that makes them ADULTS, and should have the ability to decipher right from wrong.

But I also have a sneaking suspicion that the “recruiting” involved in getting these players might have lead to this whole situation. “Hey come out to California, we’ll promise to get you into a good 4 year university, which can lead straight to a professional career, and you won’t have to pay any more money than if you were going to community college in your home town. What do you say, you have nothing to lose….”

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"The players' claims against the district include invasion of privacy, infliction of emotional distress, discrimination and loss of college basketball eligibility, four-year school scholarships and professional salary as a basketball player. Each player is seeking roughly $3.3 million, for a total of $16.5 million."

jim.nelson, they will be defrauding the taxpayers of California if they win this lawsuit. If they can't read themselves the rules of the school (which are clearly stated in the class schedule and on the district's Web site--When you register, it asks you residency questions and you have to sign that you are telling the truth), then these young men shouldn't even be in college. If someone lied for them, then sue them, not the district! The students were attending OUR schools for barely anything, with well-meaning students paying full tuition. The district did the right thing for making them ineligible. And it's very interesting that the player's attorney is also related to one of the district's coaches. This doesn't sound right from all angles.
And now the kids want a settlement out of all of this that is equivalent to a professional salary??---Sheesh!!! Do the right thing and work for it like the rest of us!!!

Posted by truthbetold2862 on May 7, 2008 at 9:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

All of you should wonder what the real story is. As someone from Ventura College decided to illegally copy and send out records of particular individuals. One must ask why ALL student applications are not being investigated? Are we as Americans ready to say okay to disrimination and going after a select few. Obviously this is a problem with the policy of the California Community Colleges and each and every tax payer should ask why everyone is not being investigated because the Community Colleges do not verify in-state-residency and let that be known!!!!! Don't point fingers until you have been told the whole truth not just what Joe Curley and his editor would like you to see!! P.S. Why isn't the Ventura County D.A. investigating the person who commited the crime of copying the records from Ventura College???????

Posted by star on May 7, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The kids are pawns here. Sense of entitlement? Maybe. But this is the *coaches* striking back at the college. The players' lawyer is father-in-law to the suspended Oxnard coach. That is not a coincidence.

A couple weeks ago, the coaches were trying to get the star players to leave for other schools. Classy act, that.

Now they've launched this legal broadside. They've convinced the kids to file suit. Either the kids get sympathy, and the coaches win, or the kids draw fire for being greedy, and the coaches escape blame.

If it wasn't clear before, it is now -- the basketball programs are like little fiefdoms. The coaches think they are the law.

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Let CRUSIFY the current players and coaches, right. Let NOT sue the district. Lets FRY the cheaters. Make them pay.

But lets NOT forget this is NOT the first time this has happened. The first time was in the late 90’s. So lets look at the bigger picture.

What is the common links.
1. Where the current coaches or players involved? NO.
2. Were there kids playing from out of state? YES.
3. Were the teams of the 90’s winning? YES.
4. Were some of the very same people in charge of VCCCD then and now? YES!

So where is the problem?

When there are two different occurrences, in two separate decades, with two different groups of coaches and players, but the same people running VCCCD and Ventura College athletics.

As I said before- Now maybe this will force the Ventura County Community College District, to find out who is REALLY at fault for this whole mess!

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

truthbetold, I know that Pierce College requires proof of state residency and they verify it with your ID before you can even register. I'm sure VCCCD requires this as well. You are also signing your name stating that your information is correct (which may mean nothing to some people). What it comes down to is that the students lied themselves because they have to sign their own paperwork. They were probably targeted because in sports programs it looks really fishy why out-of-area players come here to play. Of course there are others that slip through the cracks, but these particular individuals were caught. Too bad. Did someone illegally copy the records of these people? Perhaps. Does it change the fact that they are out-of-state residents? No. The district did the right thing no matter what the reasons.

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Jim, so what you're saying is that VCCCD should pay millions because players and perhaps coaches got away with cheating again? Aren't the wrong people being punished according to your logic?

Posted by lilmamma on May 7, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have a solution to this whole mess. The players should take responsibility and pay back the fees they owe because they were not entitled to in state tuition. VC and OC should give them their eligibility back.These players are not innocent little boys they are MEN who knew what the deal was when they came to California. Kids in Ventura County who are talented have the grades to get into top notch schools.

Posted by Equitable_Enforcer on May 7, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Our son was a VC student who went on to graduate from USCB. He ... and we ... reviewed elibility requirements at the outset for both VC and UCSB. There is no excuse for those basketball players to have done otherwise. They are all 18 or over and none are reported to suffer mental defects. They knew what they were doing.

The lawyers who are are trying to steal money from the tax payers through legal fiction and the coaches who participated in fraud against tax paying citizens should be locked up and the keys thrown away. Darned lawyers!!!!!!! They have almost destroyed the concept of personal responsibility in our nation.

Posted by countybballcoach on May 7, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So let me get this straight the argument for most of you is....since the players lied about there in state status they give up all rights to there privileged private information???? VCCCD had no right to give this info to Joe Curley and the Star it is privileged and they should have taken a much higher road in this entire situation.

The part of the suit about invasion of privacy seems like a slam dunk win for these kids the rest of the suit gets a little dicey. It’s hard to prove that a kid given the chance to play JC ball would have made it to the NBA????

I think many of you are missing the overall point though. When the college found out about these kids not paying the correct amount they should have been temporarily suspended until the remainder of the fee was paid. (All this should have been behind closed doors.) Instead the district waited for weeks if not months before suspending them in the middle of their season, and only after there transcripts and sealed records were given to the Star to have the story blown out of proportion. I think we all need to think about what is worse; kids lying to be able to afford a chance to play basketball at a college level, or the college tromping over there privacy rights to oust a few coaches.

Posted by Face on May 7, 2008 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would agree with lilmamma, with the following stipulation:
1. Turn state's evidence by informing on the SOMEONE who filled out their forms.
2. Pay all back tuition fees owed based on the falsification of their applications.
3. Drop all compensatory lawsuits.
Then they can be admitted and be allowed to play the next season after these 3 stipulations are met.
The criminal trial of the SOMEONE should shake out any and all participants and or unofficial policies that resulted in this to begin with.

Posted by oldoxn01 on May 7, 2008 at 12:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree Face

Posted by del on May 7, 2008 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Any judge that would allow this case should be placed in the public stocks.

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 12:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

countyballcoach (Imagine that?! A coach defending players!), you are exactly right with what I believe. If you lie and BREAK THE LAW, you give up your private information!!!!!
I'm not sure if you went to college, but do you know what the difference in fees are between in-state and out-of-state students??? It's not a small amount!! I highly doubt these players would've paid it back. Better solution--Send them back to their home state to go to school.
Were their transcripts given to the Star??? I highly doubt it. To get transcripts, a student has to request it. If someone verified they were out-of-state students, that isn't against the law.
Again, it still doesn't change the fact that THEY (the students) BROKE THE LAW. Many parents would love to send their kids to out-of-state colleges for many reasons and if they do, they pay mucho bucks for it. Speaking of, what do the parents have to say about this???

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 12:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

lilmamma, I agree the boys should be held responsible to pay back every penny of tuition. That would only be right.

As for you RedTail NOBODY was cheating. There paperwork was wrong and should have been checked PERIOD! The VCCCD should have realized the problem addressed it and moved on. The VCCCD instead launches this huge investigation blows everything out of proportion makes the entire team look bad; it does not make any sense. To me it looks as if the VCCCD is hiding something. Nobody on that team (players or coaches) was there to cheat! Everybody involved in this situation from coaches to players and all there families have been negatively affected by this. The Ventura Men’s Basketball team was conference champions this year. The remaining boys on the team worked incredibly hard to achieve that. Calling them cheaters is incredible insulting.

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 12:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

countyballcoach - I totally agree with you on all points.

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 1:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jim, are the student athletes that stupid that they don't understand what they are signing up for???? Not one person--from parents to the coaches--knew the out-of-state rules and even mentioned it??? BS!! Maybe I will never understand the world of athletics. When I signed up for school, I read over what I was doing and understood it. I didn't have anyone look it over for me. Do you honestly believe the students innocently packed up everything and moved to California not knowing anything involved? Do you honestly think the coaches didn't know what was going on? Who filled out the applications for them? Santa Claus? It is well known that a lot of athletes and the people surrounding them do cheat the system, and sadly they get away with it because there's a lot of money involved. So, I respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot, they are suing the ghosts that filled out their applications! The same ghosts that didn't know them, but somehow got their social security numbers and placed it on the applications.

Here is another story about the issue that appeared in the Star:
http://www.venturacountystar.com/news...

What is sad is that they were also getting financial aid, while decent hard-working students are struggling to pay for school.

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

When turning in paper work for school registration it is all done online anymore. Who actually does it is up to the student (self, parent, friend, ECT…) from there the application is verified by the school. NOT the coaches the school. Do you not think it is possible that a mistake was made on there first application and they just did the same thing on the second? It was an error. The school should have picked up on it and changed it at the beginning! Then all of this would have been avoided. A clerical error is not a crime. I know first hand how easy it is to check the wrong box on that very application that they filled out. And by the way I read every word of the application for all three of my kids. Of the 3 application we filled out one indicated that we were from out of state and would have to pay out of state tuition. A simple clerical error, the staff at the school picked up on it and we changed it. Not once did we ever even see a coach much less talk to one. I know that without my help, my kids applications would have been a total mess. You must think it’s just signing you name on a piece of paper and your in. NOT SO. My family, as most with college age kids, started the paperwork process months ago. And we are still not done. It is a very confusing process. These boys clearly owe the school for out of state tuition and fees and should pay it back. But the way the school has handled things, sense finding out there paperwork was wrong, has been the real crime.

You mentioned “What about there parents” what about them. It’s not our business to questions there parents.

Posted by jim.nelson on May 7, 2008 at 2:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"What is sad is that they were also getting financial aid, while decent hard-working students are struggling to pay for school."

It sounds like you think student aid is like welfare. Only decent hard-working students struggle to pay for school? Those boys are some of the HARDEST WORKING people I have ever met! Fedral Student Aid in for every one and almost everybody can qualify for some sort of aid. If you are truly "stuggling" then you must be to stupid not to apply for aid. COME RedTail.

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with you mmshoot.

Jim, I believe VCCCD is like the Los Angeles County system, where you submit electronically but then you have to print out the application, sign it and photocopy your driver's license and send it in. Oftentimes you have to go in. Sure, errors can happen, but if you read the previous story about this issue, the students (or someone on their end) were putting down previous residences in California when they were still attending school in their home states. Then they come here and get financial aid, which one does not receive without filling out a lot of paperwork. Were more clerical errors made there? Doubt it.
I very much know the application process for college---It can be time-consuming, but not anything that is so difficult. When it says "Are you a California resident?" and "Where do you last live for the past two years (which they ask to declare residency), are those really hard questions to answer correctly? I hope most college students before they apply should be able to fill out a college application. And again, everyone around them didn't think anything was odd that they were paying hardly anything to go to school here?? Even you know that doesn't make sense.
As far as students receiving financial aid, I was one of those students that received financial aid so I'm not knocking it and calling it welfare! Don't put words into my mouth--I did not say athletes weren't hard working. If you understand the background of the story, they were obtaining financial aid designated for in-state students by lying about where they lived for the past few years!! That's unfair to other students in my book!

Posted by RedTail on May 7, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That's too funny mmshoot!

Posted by holdenon_2000 on May 7, 2008 at 5:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If these players spent more time studying then playing basketball, maybe they could fill out the forms on their own, and this wouldn't have happened. Otherwise Stupidity is not an excuse.

The community college district is partially funded by the taxes state residents pay. So these thieves stole money from every person in the state, and justified it by claiming to be athletes. Athletes have been babied by coaches their entire lives to the point that they can't even fill out the forms on their own. Send em back to New York, Texas or where ever they came form. I don't want to pay for these babies to be given any more rights then the residents who have paid taxes to support these programs so that out of state losers (who couldn't make it in their own state) get a free ride. GO PLAY SOMEWHERE ELSE IF YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE A PRO. IF YOU ARE THAT GOOD, OTHER SCHOOLS WILL WANT YOU! Oh wait, other schools did not want them.

Posted by scott on May 7, 2008 at 8:02 p.m.

(This thread was removed by the site staff.)

Posted by abbyjacks on May 7, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh PLEASE...... everyone involved knew what was going on no matter who filled out the application. Truth be told, it's your name attending the college and on the application, it is your responsibility! VC should counter sue and get attorneys fees and all cost associated with the investigation.

Posted by smithjc on May 8, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

let me see if i understand this logic here:

"i defrauded the vcccd and the taxpayers of the state of california. i got caught, removed from the team and the school. now, the taxpayers owe me 3 million dollars".

sure, makes sense to any lawyer.

Posted by watts_gonon on May 8, 2008 at 3:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

These players and coaches knew. They are not being picked on. Student-athletes have an advantage over regular students. Most students have to find out about classes, financial aid, test dates, etc on their own. Student-athletes have those taken care of; all they have to do is go to class. If they are having problems with class work, the coaching staff sets up tutors and such. The coaches hand them what they need, where as the regular student has to go and get it. It's a wonder that many of the athletes who do not make it to the next level (4 year) have a hard time doing things on their own. They are handed everything, ergo a sense of entitlement. This is as much the fault from the coaches and schools; the price of winning at any cost.

Posted by scott on May 8, 2008 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

looks like I hit a nerve there . truth huts ha jim?

Posted by nicolesmith on May 8, 2008 at 10:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Once again it's the minorities that bear the brunt of our politics. It's always those who don't have the means to hire legal counsel who are taken advantage of. I applaud Moomau for stepping up to defend the civil rights of those who are discriminated against. Why were they singled out to have their residency checked? And weren't their privacy rights violated when their records were released? I thought we were in America.
If people would do their research they would find that lots of students check the in-state box on their applications even when they are out of state residents because it is a known thing that the California Community Colleges do not check to see if you are a California resident. In my opinion, the VCCCD and this newspaper are using this issue to persecute some coaches for their own agenda and are acting like this only ever happened at Ventura and Oxnard Colleges. This is a state-wide problem! Why don't they check every student, not just certain athletes? In my opinion it's because they don't want to and there is no policy in place nor the personnel to verify this information. I know players and students who have gone to other California community colleges and have paid in-state tuition when they have not established residency. Both of my children attended Ventura College and were never asked to verify residency. California taxpayers, wake up! Don't let this district and this newspaper make you think this is an isolated incident. I think I'll write a letter to Gov. Schwarzenegger and let him know that the VCCCD is wasting taxpayer money because they only check residency for a select few!

Posted by RedTail on May 9, 2008 at 9:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I disagree nicole. The VCCCD saw a pattern among the athletes. It wasn't just one or two students that inadvertently checked the wrong boxes. What surprises me is that even if they were singled out, why are people still defending that they shouldn't be punished? That's like telling a cop that you shouldn't get a ticket for speeding since everyone else was speeding. YOU STILL BROKE THE LAW!!!

You are wrong about California Community Colleges not checking residency. Students who have lived in California for more than a year but less than two years are asked to show proof of legal California residence. Your kids, since they lived here (and I'm sure submitted their high school transcripts which showed residence) were exempt.

And even if their checking policy is not sufficient, they are assuming you are telling the truth, especially when it states that it is against the law to lie on a school application! And should students who falsify information be let off the hook just because verification procedures aren't the best at the school? I sure hope not.

And your argument that since a lot of students do this, these students should not be punished or used as an example is very shallow. If the VCCCD has a suspicion that fraud is going on ANYWHERE, they should definitely act on it. They absolutely have the right to.

On the VCCCD Web site, students records are allowed to be accessed at the request of the student, or information concerning a student can be furnished in compliance with a lawfully issued subpoena. Disclosure without consent is allowed to school officials with legitimate educational interests. Persons with whom the school has contracted with (such as an attorney and a disciplinary committee) can also access records.

Posted by holdenon_2000 on May 9, 2008 at 10:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

These students belong in jail, FRAUD IS A CRIME!

Make an example of these athletes and coaches. If the coaches had any involvement, they should be arrested as well.

Then future athletes, and coaches, will think twice about lying on student applications. They need to be held responsible.

Another option, would be to fire the coaches of these athletes. They do all this and that to get the athletes, but they cant be sure that the application is filled out. FIRE THE COACHES, then future coaches will be sure new recruits are filling the forms correctly. Thats the problem with athletics today, Athletes and Coaches are not held responsible for their actions. They seem to get free passes. If the coach is that great of a Coach, he can work at a High School, since Out of State won't be an issue.

Posted by keepermel on May 9, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Once again it's the minorities that bear the brunt of our politics."

What the heck kind of crap is that! Laws are laws and unless you are a racist making a case that because they are minorities they should get away with it, then a statement like that is just stupid.

Posted by RedTail on May 9, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

keepermel, good point.
Did the article even say the race of these students?
And if one ever goes to any of these colleges, I don't think there is any race that is really considered a minority anymore. If anything, they were singled out because the athletic department probably had a high number of students in their program from other states. It was a red flag for school officials and they started investigating.

Posted by tellthetruth on May 9, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Duhhhhh, I can't fill out the application myself, but I think I should still go to college. Are you kidding me???!!! These idiots need to pay nack the money they owe and get jobs! College is for those that actually work hard and are intelligent enough to attend.