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Response mixed to proposal to limit Medi-Cal benefits
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Jason Redmond / Star staff Eufemia Reyes, an uninsured immigrant, has her temperature checked by medical assistant Lourdes Hernandez at Clinicas Camino del Real in Oxnard.
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Jason Redmond / Star staff Mario Altamirano, right, an uninsured immigrant, gets checked by Dr. Rahul Puri in Oxnard. The governor's immigration trims are part of his proposed budget that includes more than $1 billion in Medi-Cal cuts.
In the waiting room of an Oxnard clinic where mothers rock crying children and a television is tuned to "SpongeBob SquarePants," Medi-Cal is used as a key.
It allows farmworkers and other people here to open doors to doctors, medicine and care that would otherwise be unaffordable. But a proposal by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger could change the locks and is reigniting battles over government healthcare for legal and illegal immigrants.
Medi-Cal provides healthcare to about 6.6 million Californians, including poor families, pregnant women, disabled people and seniors. As part of a plan to strike the state's $15 billion deficit, the governor wants to limit benefits of legal residents who came to the country in the past five years so they qualify for emergency help, but little else.
Illegal immigrants could still go to emergency rooms, where hospitals are compelled by federal law to provide care. But they would have to renew eligibility cards every month in a change designed to frustrate visits other than emergencies.
To many, the suggested reform is overdue and a scratch in the surface of changes needed to offset an immigration anchor that some people contend costs California taxpayers and hospitals more than $1 billion a year.
"If these people knew they weren't going to receive all these free benefits, that might be a little discouragement for them coming in the first place," said Jere Robings, a Thousand Oaks taxpayer advocate.
The people waiting at the Maravilla Clinic for treatment for a cough, prenatal care and appointments with a psychologist say they can't pay for care on their own, and their employers won't pay for insurance.
Government help, they argue, is their fair due.
"Immigrants do the hardest work in this country," said an undocumented woman identifying herself only as Margarita.
Following federal government's lead
The governor's immigration cuts are a small but compelling part of his proposed budget that includes more than $1 billion in Medi-Cal cuts and has been criticized for wounding the state's neediest populations.
Officials say about $87 million would be saved by limiting services for about 91,000 immigrants a month. Most are new legal residents, but others include undocumented people sheltered from deportation for reasons ranging from asylum to having lived in the U.S. for more than 36 years.
They would get the same limited Medi-Cal coverage offered to illegal immigrants including emergency care, prenatal care and nursing home coverage. They would be blocked from routine care or treatment of any condition that isn't an emergency.
About $42 million would be saved by changing the way some illegal immigrant families get care. Instead of getting Medi-Cal cards that provide for emergency services for an entire year, people would need new cards for every month they need services.
Budget committees in the Assembly and Senate have voted against the proposals along with many other Medi-Cal changes, but state officials say they'll keep pushing for the cuts.
Restricting benefits saves more money because California won't lose federal contributions to Medi-Cal, said Stan Rosenstein, a chief deputy director for the California Department of Healthcare Services.
The federal government stopped contributing to full benefits for new legal residents in 1996. State legislators decided to keep funding the programs, but now the governor is suggesting a new path.
"The issue here today is with the budget crisis we have. We just don't have the money to help out anymore," Rosenstein said.
"Nobody likes to make these cuts. The governor is very clear that he doesn't like this proposal. The problem is you can't provide services you can't afford."
'A vulnerable population'
Immigration advocates argue the budget cuts would prevent people from getting preventive healthcare and treating belly pain before it becomes appendicitis. They say people will end up in emergency rooms with more severe problems that cost taxpayers more money.
Most of the people who would be hurt came to the country lawfully, have jobs and pay taxes, said Elia Gallardo, director of government affairs for the California Primary Care Association.
"Instead of looking at other alternatives, we look at harming a vulnerable population," she said, trying to interpret the message behind the proposal. "It's you don't care about us.' "
Other Medi-Cal cuts that eliminate dental programs, eliminate some working poor from eligibility and make it harder to find doctors victimize immigrants as well, said Tony Alatorre, chief operating officer for Clinicas Camino del Real, a group of clinics that serves farmworkers and other low-income people.
"You can work the fields," he said, offering his read of the state's message, "but you won't have any access to healthcare and we'll keep your taxes."
Protecting taxpayers
California should have cut back services long ago to green card holders who came to the country in the past five years, said Ira Mehlman of Federation for American Immigration Reform, which advocates tighter enforcement of immigration laws. When people apply for residency, they pledge not to become a financial burden.
"You have a sponsor who has signed on the dotted line saying if that person can't take care of themselves, I'm responsible and not the taxpayers," he said.
The government can't morally refuse life-saving care to someone in a car accident or any other emergency, Mehlman said. But uninsured people including illegal immigrants abuse the laws by going to emergency rooms whenever they want to see doctors.
"It's huge," he said of the costs to taxpayers, citing his group's study claiming illegal immigrants cost California $1.4 billion in uncompensated healthcare in 2004. "A billion and a half is a lot of money to spend on people who don't have any right to be here in the first place."
The frustration is vented throughout Ventura County, even in the Maravilla Clinic where citizens, residents and illegal immigrants wait side by side for healthcare.
"I work hard for my money. I have to pay for my insurance," said a man in a "Red Dog" T-shirt, declining to give his name but identifying himself as an immigrant who earned citizenship. "The people who come here have better healthcare than I do."
Uncompensated care
The exact impact appears impossible to pinpoint. Gallardo said reports from groups battling for tighter immigration enforcement ignore taxes paid by illegal immigrants that she thinks more than compensate the costs to society.
Still, hospital officials complain they absorb huge costs in uncompensated care. They say federal law blocks them from documenting how many illegal immigrants come to their emergency rooms.
"We're not allowed to ask the citizenship question," said Jan Emerson, spokeswoman for the California Hospital Association. She said the best guess is based on Social Security identification information and suggests about 10 percent of total uncompensated costs can be attributed to illegal immigrants, about $970 million a year.
Nearly one-fifth of the 100,191 people in Ventura County who receive Medi-Cal haven't been able to verify their legal status and have been given limited coverage that protects emergency needs, said Paul Bujold of the Ventura County Human Services Agency.
Robings, a watchdog who has run two taxpayer advocacy groups, thinks government agencies should know more about the financial impact of illegal immigrants and probably do.
"I don't think they want to know. I don't think they want the public to know," he said.
'Very difficult decisions'
Others argue the way to stop the drain is to better control who enters the country.
"My concern is not finding ways to keep immigrants out of the healthcare system. That's a waste of time. Modern society is never going to allow it," said Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C.
"Once you let poor people into a modern advanced society, they're going to cost taxpayers a huge amount of money, not because they're ripping us off but because they're poor."
But as outsiders argue immigration policy, the debate in Sacramento focuses on whittling the state's cavernous deficit.
Even if massive cuts are made, that doesn't mean immigrants who no longer qualify for Medi-Cal or other programs won't get healthcare, said Mike Powers, director of the Ventura County Health Care Agency.
"As a healthcare system, we want all of the people to get preventive care," he said. "We want to do that whether they have Medi-Cal or not. If they don't have coverage, we try to link them up with something."
Opponents of the cuts to immigrants complain that budget problems don't justify creating human pain. But that, according to Rosenstein, is the reality facing California.
"We have to make some very difficult decisions that hurt people," he said.
— Staff writer Adam Foxman contributed to this report.
Posted by Freedom1 on June 23, 2008 at 5:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, it's about time that the Governor face the reality of one of the aspects of illegal immigration and extending benefits to green card holders that they should not be eligible for. If hospitals were allowed to ask the verifiable legal status of those they treat I'm sure the cost would be astronomical - and that is something our pro-illegal immigration politicians just don't want us to see. This will never pass, but I commend the Governor for trying. But, I have to wonder if it did, would that keep Ana Puente, the illegal alien from Mexico, from getting her 4th kidney transplant?
Posted by goldeneye on June 23, 2008 at 7 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I can't go to Mexico and demand free services. Mexico would throw me in jail or kick me out. This is what Mexico does to Central Americans.
Posted by SUEBABY on June 23, 2008 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Or, we could just continue to let the illegals who use the emergency room for their own personal doctor's office continue to drain the life out of our medical system, until they start closing down the e-rooms and trauma centers like they're being forced to do in L.A. Then, next time you need these critical services, you can just drive your bleeding self on down to Tijuana and demand that they reciprocate.... yeah.
Posted by sawyerfamily on June 23, 2008 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You should not feel sorry for these illegal immigrants as they already have access to preventative healthcare. The pharmacias and healthcare clinicos are right over the border in Mexico.
Posted by ebrockway on June 23, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sounds like the pork barrel is almost empty. Better raise taxes! Vote DemocRat!
Posted by star on June 23, 2008 at 8:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Did anybody notice the article is about cutting benefits for *legal* immigrants?
Posted by Anita_Corona on June 23, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
funny because everyone mentions illegal immigrants, what about those who are here LEGALLY and worst yet those who were born here and also abuse of the system?
Posted by beachmom on June 23, 2008 at 9:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well said, SUEBABY!
Star, the benefit cuts for legal residents is only for the first 5 years that they are here. When I immigrated here with my parents in the early 60's (from Europe) we had to show proof that we were financially self reliant: either had enough $ to live on or had a sponsor that was financially responsible for us for the first 5 years we lived here. That law was created to keep people from coming to the USA with their hands out. Kind of like showing proof of vaccinations and a clean bill of health used to be required before being allowed to immigrate. Sick people were sent back!
We are a land of opportunity for those willing to work, not a nanny state.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"It's huge," he said of the costs to taxpayers, citing his group's study claiming illegal immigrants cost California $1.4 billion in uncompensated healthcare in 2004. "A billion and a half is a lot of money to spend on people who don't have any right to be here in the first place."
That is crazy! That is 1.4 billion that could be better spent on education for our children, after school programs, more police to better protect our streets and even knock down the gang presence...
Posted by Jacksprat on June 23, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Az passed a law except for emergency treatment you must prove you are not illegal. Emergency room are not for everyday medical care. So you show up at one and it is life threating they will stablize you beyond that you areon your own, need insurance or money to pay for the care.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 10:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
That is my biggest issue is the amount of money that is spent on illegals. I don't care about people coming here legally, wait your turn in line and I say welcome, but coming here illegally and having the hand is just wrong! No other country in the world just hands out free food, free medical care...it is just a burden on our society!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"That is my biggest issue is the amount of money that is spent on illegals. I don't care about people coming here legally, wait your turn in line and I say welcome, but coming here illegally and having the hand is just wrong! No other country in the world just hands out free food, free medical care...it is just a burden on our society!"
Amen sister! That is my biggest beef too.
I am BLOWN away that Medi-Cal is provided to people who are in this country illegally. No wonder there is a tidal wave of people coming into our country illegal.
It's contradictory to have government agencies tasked with curtailing illegal immigration and deportation while at the same time another agency is handing out Medi-Cal cards.
Someone please, explain this debacle.
Posted by marketrealist on June 23, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As a legal immigrant who came here over 25 years ago, I worry as I hear the hatred against immigrants. I am considering taking my engineering degree and experience and migrating to Australia, where immigrants are more welcomed. Too bad because in my career, I have hired hundreds of Americans and turned over millions for the companies for which I have worked.
I wonder who will pay the taxes for the social security and medicare of the greying US population if we did not have immigrants. This used to be a positive and upbeat country but it seems like we're becoming increasingly mean spirited and pessimistic.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It's not about legal migrants, my husband came here legally some 40 years ago, it's the people who come here ILLEGALLY that is the issue. As I said, some here legally and WELCOME!
You came here LEGALLY 25 years ago and you appear to have an excellent grasp of the English language, and with your degree, I doubt you are on any public assistance and wait...you came here legally! So WELCOME!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
marketrealist...my issue is providing medical benefits for ILLEGAL immigrants. Especially when so many other programs lack funding, we can't pay teachers enough to keep them and attract them, etc.
By the way, I also take issue with legal citizens who take advantage of the welfare system, also costing our government (and us ultimately) millions and millions of dollars. I hope that our governor is looking into reform in that area too.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Excellent point, Bea!
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Excellent point, Bea!
Posted by zany on June 23, 2008 at 12:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One of the problems with totally free medical care is that is is taken advantage of and not very regulated. For instance you slice open your hand after hours and can't go to the doctor, so you go to the ER. What is there? Many many people with kids that have a fever or cough. SO?? When I grew up a fever or cough usually meant a cold or some other virus and we went to bed and drank fluids. We didn't need a doctor in the ER to tell us that. Nor did we get free care. I think this country should be more helpful to it's citizens that are born here, rather than say no, you have to go in debt for the rest of your life while we help these other people here. And this doesn't include all the clinics everywhere who recruit people with a Medi-Cal card to help defraud the system. The whole thing needs revamping by someone with common sense and a knowledge of how to budget money.
Posted by myOpenyun on June 23, 2008 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Its about time!!!! I do agree with the woman named Margarita that the immigrants do, do the hardest work in this country! I will not knock them of that. But why should they then get free medical, dental and everything else? They work get paid they should pay into a medical insurance like the rest of us and have co-pays etc... If their employer doesnt provide it for them do like the rest of us do buy it yourself. If that doesnt work get in your own country? Yah right.
Posted by VenturaN on June 23, 2008 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Save 1 billion and this is without true precentages from hospitals caused by non-Americans. If I hear one more quote "we work harder", please do that hard work in your own country and make it economically efficient and get your free healthcare there. I, an American, work hard, get insurance that doesn't pay it all & I alone have to go in debt to pay my bills. This 4th of July let only Americans celebrate!
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 12:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am waiting for...."who will pick the strawberries?"
My response...send inmates out there to do it to pay off their debt to society!
Posted by caokie on June 23, 2008 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Is'nt health care free in Mexico?. If a person is here legally they can get on the ACE program,provided they meet the income guidelines if here illegally they can sign up for the Self Pay program. With that program they only pay a portion of the total cost of their care. Their kids get free care under the ACE for Kids program. That program has no citzenship requirments. And we wonder why people come here? I do'nt know but am willing to bet that more people "escaped from Mexico " than ever did from eastern Europe.
Posted by whatever on June 23, 2008 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Government help, they argue, is their fair due.
"Immigrants do the hardest work in this country," said an undocumented woman identifying herself only as Margarita
First off it is NOT their fair due. Talk about being taught that the US owes them, we owe them NOTHING! This is ridiculous. And Margarita no they do not do the hardest work in the COUNTRY! There are thousands of jobs that are extremely hard work, you are not special. All the people who do not have health insurance that was born in the USA are more than due health ins, you Margarita are not nor are all of your illegals friends and family. Our Country is indeed getting spoiled and ruined by all the illegals. Truly stealing from us.
Posted by clementine on June 23, 2008 at 1:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was born in the good ole USA - my parents & grandmother were also born here. In 2003 when I was 62 yrs old, I got laid off from my job and couldn't find a full time, permanent job - so I didn't have medical insurance. I knew I had ovarian cancer as I wasn't feeling well (and my mother died from it). I wasn't able to go to a doctor until November 2005 when I turned 65 yrs old when I became eligible for Medicare. I worked all my life - starting at 15 yrs old thru 62 yrs old. My cancer had progressed since I waited so long to go to a doctor - but I had my surgery & chemo. Why do these illegals have the right to take advantage of this great country where they expect to get medical care at any time for themselves & their family? Free - Free - Free. Hopefully, they'll stay in their countries when they realize they can't take advantage of us any more.
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I work for the Medi-Cal and Food Stamps department. Reading some of the comments, I have to say information is not accurate. Illigal immigrants are only entitle to restricted benefits, which are only emergencies. Also pregnant woman are only elegible to pregnancy related services. As for Food Stamps, Illegal immigrants are not elegible; simple as that. If we really think about it, it is only fair because they do pay taxes and they do not see any benefits, so it is only fair to get Medi-Cal in a case of an emergency. I have to say that must comments are to judge others, and this is incorrect. Have you think about yourself. Maybe you don't abuse this system but have you think about how you do abuse other system like housing, taxes, and I can go on and on. Please be fair and do not judge others. If governor is doing the cuts is because he has no education to handle a complex system and just always takes the easy way out. We should all help each other regardless of citizenship status.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 1:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Plus, if you're on Medicare don't you have to practically go through all of your assets? I mean in order to qualify you can't have much, correct?
So here we have ILLEGAL immigrants who can't afford health insurance or to pay for their medical bills but they can afford to send $$ back to their families in their home countries.
Something is seriously wrong with this picture!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 1:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Illigal immigrants are only entitle to restricted benefits, which are only emergencies."
How is emergency defined? As a visit to an emergency room or urgent care?
Because in that case ANYTHING could be deemed an emergency. Like a fever, runny nose, etc.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I just sent an e-mail to Arnold...maybe if he received more e-mails with peoples concerns on the subject it might open his eyes.
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Emergencies are only define by a professional, and a doctor is usually the professional that can constitute what is an emergency in order for Medical to pay for illigal immigrants. Based on my experience most the the cases is because they life is at risk if no action is taken. As for the requirements income and assets are evaluated equality to immigrants and non immigrants. However, immigrants only are elegible to restricted while citizens (documented) are full scope. This information is available in the publci library or online.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I still say the "service" (for lack of a better word) that illegals provide can be picked up by having inmates do the work for free. Heck, this would also lower the costs of the produce picked by illegals and increase profits for farmers AND work to detour criminls from wanting to re-offend.
The money saved by not funding illegals in so many ways from healthcare, to the increase in auto insurance due to uninsured motorists, etc., can be used in much better ways to make this a more productive community.
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If we use logic you tell me how are you gonna make inmates do that job. This job is sometimes 12 hours non-stopping with 30 min luch time. If inmates are in prison is not because they are hard working individuals or strive in life good enough. Even if that was the case, what will your choice be; live around inmates or with immigrants that they do nothing to harm you. Look at life from different angles not just yours. This should help you be more human.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 1:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Okay, so let's say an illegal immigrant, who only has Medi-Cal for emergencies, goes to a hospital ER because of what turns out to be a very bad cold. So their life is not at risk.
When they check into the ER they give their Medi-Cal card. Does the doctor come out and tell the billing person that it was non-life threatening, thus NOT an emergency? No, my guess is that this does not happen to 1) Medi-Cal is billed and pays for the visit or 2) the payment is denied and then who pays?
We pay!
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 1:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Are you kidding? I am not saying that I am opposed to immigrants, I am talking about ILLEGAL immigrants, they aren't one in the same! One is here legally and went through the proper channels and the other entered the country illegally and is a CRIMINAL!
I am shocked at how many illegals have entered this country who have been convicted of horrible crimes yet they sneaking back. NO, I don't want to be living amoung those people!!!!
So you suggest that we leave the prison sytem status quo, because it's working right? Do you have any idea how high the recidivism rate is? If prison was a bit harder like the chain gang days, you better believe people wouldn't want to be commiting crimes! Plus, we wouldn't be "living" amoung the inmates, they would be out there working under armed supervision!
You're right, let's be more humane and just keep babying the criminals and providing hand outs to those who break the law to come here illegally!
Please note: ILLEGAL is the key word!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 2 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"If we use logic you tell me how are you gonna make inmates do that job."
This is entirely possible. Take low-security, low-risk inmates and offer them the chance to 1) repay their debt to society; 2) have some time outside the prison walls; and 3) shave time off of their sentences.
Someone in prison for tax-evasion or pot possesion or for fraud/stealing is hardly likely to pose a major security threat. Prison officials know who the violent offenders are and those inmates would not qualify for the program.
From programs instituted by Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Arizona:
"Chain gangs
Shortly after taking office, Arpaio reinstituted chain gangs, the controversial form of inmate labor which had been virtually eliminated in the United States.
Arpaio believes that chain gangs are not a form of punishment, but of rehabilitation. Inmates who are low-risk but with a history of jail incidents can apply to serve as free labor. Inmates work eight-hours a day, six days a week (Sundays off), mainly outside. The inmates wear traditional black-and-white striped uniforms (see below for more details) with a cap to protect against the desert heat. Inmates perform such tasks as creating fire breaks, removing trash, and burying deceased indigent persons in the county cemetery.
Arpaio also expanded the chain gang concept by instituting a female chain gang. Female inmates work seven hours a day (7 AM to 2 PM), six days a week. Arpaio has also instituted the world's first all-juvenile volunteer chain gang; volunteers earn high school credit toward a diploma."
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 2 p.m. (Suggest removal)
that's right. even if an illigal immigrant goes to a hospital ER for a cold --- Medi-Cal won't pay. I am telling you; I work in the department. I always advice my clients not to do that because they will end up with a bill. Emergencies like I said are only emergencies where the doctor determines life to be at risk. Employees are all well capacitated in billing to handle this job. When it comes to the Medi-Cal system and regulations, this system is really well managed as to know how to handle the budget. The problem here is the governor trying to cut in all departments equally not just Medi-Cal. This is why I said that governor doesn't know what he is doing. Taking a class in my MBA (public administration) I learned the inefficiencies caused by our current governor. Good example is the case of Medi-Cal.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"I always advice my clients not to do that because they will end up with a bill."
ADVISE, not advice
and all of your "clients" always provide true and accurate information, right? So I am sure the bill is sent to their make believe home address and the creditors go after their fake social security number, right? The hospital can't take back the services they provided and the hospital is left to write off the expense yet again, increasing costs for the rest of us as the hospitals jack up their contract rates with the insurance carriers which inturn affect OUR health insurance premiums...bunch of CRAP!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 2:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"I learned the inefficiencies caused by our current governor."
Please educate those of us who weren't in your MBA class as to some of the inefficiencies. And you say that Medi-Cal is one of them but what do you mean by that? That it doesn't do enough for people or that the program is poorly managed?
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I will not post you guys anything anymore because it seems like you just want to attack me. If you guys comprehend what it is to be a good citizen, then you guys will not critize because that's what you are doing even in my spelling. As far as they can make up thing like a social security and born here... We have a system that verifies all that information--- but you guys are just making it hard and confusing people. Good bye and hopefully you guys will never travel and desteny will put yourself in the same situation because then you guys can talk about the subject in a positive way. Bye.
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm sorry for correcting your spelling, mine isn't always perfect.
BUT, this is not an attack, but simply a debate...and as far as being a good citizen, how is it being a good citizen when you aid someone commiting an illegal act? You mentioned above that you tell your illegal clients they will be billed, you know they are here illegally and you aid them as to how to work the system, a system that all of us are paying for with our tax dollars. You can't make the excuse that they are paying taxes, cause I am quite certain that if someone is hiring an illegal, they aren't reporting taxes accurately and a great deal, if not all is paid under the table. So those of us who are actually paying our fair share in taxes are the ones being affected by this with higher premiums on health insurance, auto insurance and penalized by cuts in education.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 2:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm not attacking; as hotwildflower said this is a debate.
When you post something you have to anticipate that people might ask questions about what you posted. Especially when the topic is as sensitive as this one is.
Traveling to another country on vacation and coming to this country ILLEGALLY are two entirely different situations. If I was going to take a trip to a foreign country I'd see 1) if my health insurance covered me in another country; 2) see if there was trip insurance that I could purchase; or 3) expect to put medical costs on my credit card if something did come up.
I WOULDN'T expect for the country that I was visiting to foot the bill for my medical expenses.
No system is foolproof and plenty of people use invalid social security #'s.
Look, I appreciate that you work for this organization and I'm sure it's not easy. But in my opinion we cannot continue to support illegal immigrants through government programs.
Nor should we continue to support US resident chronic abusers of the social services system.
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Re-read that carefully. I stated I advice (advise) LOL my clients not (NOT) to do that. In other words there is no way to cheat the system. I said attack not debate because when you are in a debate you do not go off the topic like you do. You keep your argument in the topic and defend it with constructive argument not destructive. Good luck in your "debates" Your lucky I have the time to be talking to you. Have a good day "good citizen".
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm sorry, but there are ways to cheat the system and it is happening every single minute of every single day. I appreaciate your eternal optimism, but the reality is, people are cheating the system and we as a society are paying for it. It's wrong and changes MUST be made!
I understand that you advise your clients NOT to cheat the system and I commend you for that, but they aren't heeding your advice and you admit that your clients are ILLEGAL which is the issue that I am having with all of this.
You and many others who so passionately defend the immigration issue seem to loose site that illegal immigration is a crime and legal immigration isn't. Once again, come here legally and "welcome!"
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
see, spelling error...lose, not loose!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
unknown123...does this mean that you're not going to answer my question about other inefficiencies?
Especially the information about our governor?
I am truly interested in knowing more.
Posted by whatever on June 23, 2008 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
unknown123, and you don't think that all these Dr's for the sake of being a Dr who practices medicine won't put it as an emergency? Come on now....Unless they are having a heart attack or, are dying then I see no need for them to be able to have our US tax dollars do anything for them. We are helping the woman who want to have baby after baby that they can not afford. WOW what a concept for them...lets make all these woman who can not afford it pay for our options to procreate again and again. Plus they will get medical for them afterwards and Wic to feed them. This is a shame they can get a thing! Stop the goodies and make them go home.
Posted by mamaof2 on June 23, 2008 at 3:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
They say illegals cant get medical or food stamps but that puzzles me because honestly i dont think all the people i see using there food stamp cards are here legally. its sad, when i needed help they didnt give me anything for 4 mos! by then i didnt even need it anymore! i think they do need to cut back on certain things, this will make most people stop being lazy and work harder for what they want. knowing there isnt going to be those food stamps there for u will just make u think twice b4 having 7 babies. dont get me wrong alot of these programs i believe are very helpful but too many people take advantage of them and try to live off of them.
Posted by Brittanicus on June 23, 2008 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
California has got itself in this mess by being recognised as a 'Sanctuary State'? This is probably were thousands of illegal immigrants fleeing from Arizona employment sanction laws? After all the illegal immigrants have almost bankrupt the state and county? The Governor, mayor and the dancing puppet of city administrators in LA, are to blame for pandering to the Hispanic caucuses. Have a look at some of the costs, that suppresed newspapers keep away from the public.
Are we going to remain burdened with traffic gridlock, access to free health care, free education and cities, communities, neighborhoods compounding pollution and rising crime rate. Border states were under tremendous pressure, with sinking economies until Arizona passed legislation to finally stop pariah businesses, and an overpopulation of illegal immigrants.
Today Arizona is doing better, since they start enforcing immigration restrictions. You can open your eyes here: (www.mensnewsdaily.com/2008/05/15/striking-changes-in-arizona-as-illegal-immigrants-flee-the-state/#comment-62672 )
Read about costs the US government keeps under wraps.
This doesn't include education, free health care or prison services and much more not listed. Find that disturbing report here (www.eagleforum.org/sources).
Read about one committees free health care research. (www.townhall.com/columnists/AmandaCarpenter/2008/06/12/viral_video_on_immigration_costs )
Then go here to fight back:
www.numbersusa.com
Call your local Democratic representaive and demand the federal SAVE ACT (H.R.4088) Without jobs, illegal alien
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 3:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BeaHappi, I can answer your question; however, I am not sure if you will understand budgets and ratio distribution to better explain the inefficiencies.
Whatever, I agree with you as your statement about the Doctors, but there is nothing we can do. This is an ethical decision they have to make. They are the ones that studied medice not us. The power is in their hands.
I just want you to understand both of you that I am just neutral to this topic. I am just posting saying we should not be attacking and we should should respect. One famous person once said give respect to show some respect. In fact, when you corrected my spelling I was not worry about it because I am young and still have to learn and take my time. I am in my 20's (early) and I am sure with your experience you must be a little bit older than me. However, I can still keep up with your "debate" and as far as teaching you guys from my class then you must have to attend the class. I all can tell you is show respect for others. You can make your point of dislike or like but without insulting. I hope you do get this, and will not turn it into another "debate" or what do you guys think??
Posted by hotwildflower on June 23, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am only a few years older than you! The difference, I would guess, is life experience and you are not neutral on the subject, we just have much stronger opposing opinions than you do.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 4:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"I am not sure if you will understand budgets and ratio distribution to better explain the inefficiencies."
Give it a try; I have a strong accounting and finance background.
Posted by longtimeSVresident on June 23, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't understand why they are targeting those who have a legal status. Isn't that the entire point of our illegal immigration problem? We want to ENCOURAGE people to come here legally and now he wants to penalize them? They are not the problem.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 4:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
longtimeSVresident - what I understood from this article is that when the immigrants are sponsored for a green card their sponsor must sign something that says that if the immigrant can't provide for themselves that the sponsor will.
The people that we want to come here legally are those who can positively contribute, not cost taxpayers more.
Having a green card but needing Medi-Cal seems to be a contradiction to the requirements needed to obtain one.
Posted by tim14229 on June 23, 2008 at 4:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think I see a big part of this problem- obviously, people who work IN the system don't or can't realize the scope and depth of the abuse.
Posted by live_for_purpose on June 23, 2008 at 5:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Can you say leaches? I see all the kids (most of them Hispanic) at school lining up for their free lunches, complete with their cell phones, I-pods, $40 baseball caps, etc. Not too mention all they spend on concert tickets, marijuana, and alcohol. Doesn't sound like gadgets you should have if you're getting welfare. What do you think?
Posted by Hernandez72 on June 23, 2008 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I say stop all benefits for them! Enough is enough. I was born and raised in California as we're my parents. I have been working since I was 17 years old and I am now 36. When I got breast cancer 2 years ago and was put on disability I had a heck of a time trying to get any kind of assistance to help me and my family out. The two times I went to the welfare office I would see a parking lot full of newer SUV's. Inside I would see women with 3 or 4 small children with gold chains and earings hanging from the babies wrists and ears! I only needed temporary assistance for 2 or 3 months and was denied. Yet everytime I read in the paper about a new low income housing apartment being built it is usually for the migrant or illegal workers. Just 2 years ago an illegal imigrant man that I know was given a heart transplant! Why should he be entitled to it! What about the real American citizens! A hard working US citizen may have died because a heart that could have been for him was given to a man who entered this country illegally. I have had to visit the emergency room at St. John's in Oxnard several times during my cancer treatment and hated having to sit in a room with these people who we're bringing their babies in just because they had a cold! I agree with live-for-purpose. If they can afford gadgets and gold jewelry they can afford to pay their own medical bills!!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 23, 2008 at 5:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hotwildflower mentions sending an email to our governor. It's a good idea for everyone who feels strongly about this to do the same. Here is the link:
http://gov.ca.gov/interact
Pass it on to others who feel strongly about this so that they can send their opinions and questions too.
Posted by ironwoman on June 23, 2008 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If you commit a serious crime and go to the California Prison system, you can just get your medical care for free. No medi-cal needed. Free of charge, no generic, the real deal. You can even get a by-pass surgery for free too, even if you're on death row.
Posted by we_r_right on June 23, 2008 at 7:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I laughed about the comment that illegals do the hardest work. These people have never been close to some of the Fortune 500 companies in California. Believe me, the executives and scientists there work HARD! And they studied HARD to get those jobs. I've seen sweat coming from these white collar workers when they are pressed for deadlines and reports. This is very difficult work. And many of them keep up this pace into their 60's. Their health and their marriages often suffer. Yes, they earn tons more than field workers or domestics, but they do work very, very hard.
And the joke about illegals getting taxed, but not getting Social Security, is not as it seems. A good friend was a bookkeeper for years in a manufacturing plant. She knew many of the social security cards were false, but she had to accept them, and wait for the government report that they were false. She would tell the workers that they had to explain themselves, and the next day they were gone. Some of them were in the early 20's, yet claimed a dozen dependents on their tax withholding. She knew they didn't have kids, but she had to turn it in like they filled it out. She said these guys got nearly 100% of their paychecks, and paid no taxes for months, and years, until the government caught up with them, and then they vanished. They just moved on, and bought themselves another false SS card.
I drive by the free clinic on Hillcrest and Boardwalk in TO every day. Tons of Spanish speaking pregnant moms pushing strollers. Obviously, they can't afford those kids. There is a flyer from the County on the door with a photo of a kid with small pox, and a warning not to come in if you are infected. Yes, the County had to issue a smallpox warning in Ventura County. Scary. Do you know that TB has increased 4 times in the past 10 years? Close our borders!
And to the young woman in the MBA Program, what school is that that says trash about the Governor? And how did you pass your GMAT or GRE's with your weak writing skills? That's not a slam, that's a legitimate question. I suggest you take some business English and grammar classes, and work on your spelling. If you want to be taken seriously in big business, you MUST be correct, not sloppy.
Posted by Tom_Johnston on June 23, 2008 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We could go on and on about treatment options for those not legally residing in the US and what the State of California should or should not do about it.
The bottom line is that current Federal Law mandates THAT anyone who show's up in the Emergenc Room must be treated.
The debate about the wisdom of that aside, there is the very legitamate issue of where will people denied lower cost care go...they'll to the ER dummy! Pretty much like everyone else, insured or not, that can't get a Doctor's appointment within the next three weeks or so.
Making people re-enroll monthly...well, that is just going to be a beauracracy ratholt to throw money into. Why not quarterly, or bi-annually?
The idea is to, like in the King Kong movies...shake the tree and see how many sailors fall off.
Great...unlike the movie, we'll have to pay for that tree-shaking and that money will take away from EVERYONE's health dollar. A REALLY bad idea. Just check things quarterly, and you'll drop those paperwork costs by 1/3. There is the assumption that the system could even handle that kind of monthly workload.
It's a lousy way to deal with a legit problem, it'll cost more,delay care for those legally entitled, and lead to more complicated cases showing up in ER's that will have to be dealt with anyway.
Typical bone-head answer to a problem whose solutions lie elsewhere.
Posted by Will on June 23, 2008 at 7:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Don't forget that some of the legal immigrants are working under a fake SSN so they can collect unemployment under their real name. Happens all the time. Also, how many are working for cash and not paying taxes? The cash economy is much bigger than most people realize.
Posted by unknown123 on June 23, 2008 at 8:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To we_r_right, no offense but do you know how many doctors are out there not knowing proper grammar or English, and do you know that these doctors are thousand times much better than what you are. Let me tell you one thing, English is my second language and if I compared my primary language to yours, I assure you to be much better than what you type just by reading what you wrote. Secondly, I want to add that you as a doctor should not be expressing this way about your clients. If you don't love what you do, then why do it. I don't want to argue with you but I just had it to say that because you think you are all that just because you are a doctor with a perfect grammar. But what about a perfect life? what about being more caring and stop talking about people the way you do. Do you lack that skills because I don't. I guaranteed you that this will take me further in life than being a local doctor knowing perfect English.
Posted by we_r_right on June 23, 2008 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To unknown 123: I'm not a doctor. Where did you read that? And why would you say that "these doctors" are a thousand times better than I am? Odd. I gave you some advice. Take a business English class.
I spoke Spanish as a child in Madrid, but my family is not hispanic. I also have a degree in another european language, one that was not my native tongue. I am also a certified military linguist in 2 languages. I've studied 3 more languages just for fun, but I'm only conversational in those.
Grammar is important, and so is spelling. My parents were non-English speakers in America as children, even though they were born here. My grandparents decided to ONLY speak English to them once they started school. All 4 of my grandparents continued to speak their northern european mother tongue with each other and their friends.
My mother and father had successful corporate business careers and are now in their 90's and are millionaires. They have great English skills which opened many doors for them, and made them equal with other Americans. They corrected every grammar mistake my brothers and sisters and I made at home, and I did the same for my own kids. My adult children have a rich vocabulary, speak beautifully and intelligently, and communicate very accurately in both their writing and speech. Their dad was foreign-born, still has an accent, and still works on his vocabulary constantly, and looks up every new word he comes across.
Ignore my advice if you want. Make excuses for yourself if you want. Stay offended if you want. But I'm here to tell you, the key to success in America is fluency and mastery of the English language.
Posted by toofargone on June 23, 2008 at 10:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
California needs to look at how other states deals with its "assistance" to needy people. Some states, medical is only avaliable to CHILDREN, and PREGNANT women,and that is MEDICAL only, no dental what so ever, for the adults, no vision what so ever for the adults, the children get all the coverage they need. ALL children MUST have a birth certificate (which they verify to be real) and social security number, which they can check out also. Everyone getting assistance has to go thru a face to face interview with case workers every 6 months, You can not get welfare in somestates for children unless there is a childsupport order in effect, basically if you want help from the government in some states, the father/mother/non custodial parent of the children will have the county child support on their behinds to pay for the help you are applying for. geez, in some states you cant even get a drivers license without have a paid in full insurance card valid for 1 year in your posession. and yes i know i cant spell either ;-) there are ways to fix the problem, its just gonna take time, and investigating and searching into what other states do .
Posted by rcamacho on June 23, 2008 at 10:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Posts that degrade others on the basis of gender, race, class, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation or disability.
Disparaging remarks, abusive language or obscene comments.
Threats, whether obvious or veiled. "
Gee, we totally are ignorant of who we are here, ripping immigrants, both legal and illegal:
I can speak Southern Athabaskan (Apache), spanish, english, mandarin, and french.
My grandma was full blood Chiricahua Apache ( we have our tribal numbers), and my Mexican grandpa was born in Texas and his ancestors where there pre-1848 bfore the US/Mexican war, according to state records.
I Graduated from UCLA in 1986 and hold 3 degrees;Molecular Biology, Chemistry, and Botanical Science. I work in Biomechanics/Biotechnology..
Im still an Immigrant even though my ancestors have been here for more than a century.
A Story my grandma read to me called "The Leader of the Birds" when I was 6.
"Díí dlö' t'ah nnee dá' ánágot'ii£hi. Dlö'hi í£a'ádzaago yáda£ti'. "Haadast'i'hí dawa binant'a' dagolíí dá' nééhíí nohwinant'a' doo £a' da'," daniigo lëk'e. "Daílíízhi' nnee daandlîî. Nant'an nohwá ágolne'go n£t'éé néé a£do'. Hago ágot'eehíí nohwá ya£ti' dolee£hi bighâ," danii lëk'e.
Go dlö i£tsogécho haabi'do£tîî dantséh, "Bit'â' n£téé dazhö án," daniigo. Bit'â'híí dayini£'íígo án binant'a' hileeh hádat'ii lëk'eh. Nzaad godiyaa, yaa yáda£ti'go; áí n'íí, "Dah nzhôô án," daanniid lëk'e. "Bidiyágé danii dénzhóné ndiníí doo zhö ya£ti'hîî k'ego at'éé da. Nohwinant'a' silîîyógo doo nohwá ya£ti'da nkeegonigháh dánkoh." Go án k'izhi' niltîî lëk'eh.
Aídi' bizaagolaani níhanááná£tïï. Dagoshch'i', "án dazhö bizaagóchî'hi at'éé," daabi£nniid lëk'e. Dazhö dadzaaníí yaa ya£ti' £a'íí dadzaaníí yedlîî. án doo nzhôô da nohwinant'a' hileeh yógo. Nohwits'ä' i£ta ya£ti' hileeh dánkoh," daniigo, án k'izhi' naaná£tîî.
K'adik'eh, jagháshdiyé habi'doltîî. "Dín nohwintant'a' hileeh gohíí dat'éé?" naa£ch'inii. "án a£do' £a'n'híí k'ehgo at'éé, bizaagochî'go. Doo n£t'éégo nohwá haodziih at'éé da. Doo beegonidzââ da, £a'íí ák'ee ya£ti'hi at'éé a£do'. £ââgo yedlîî hileeh, dázhogo na'a níí." án a£do' k'izhï' naaná£tîî.
áik'ehgo yógo, goshdiyéhíí dat'éé?" danii lëk'eh. án n£t'éé wîî. án yógo dijaad, hayú yáná'itihyú nohwá nazit'ii dolee£. áídi' n£t'éégo ya£ti' a£' do'. án nohwinant'a' hileehgo n£t'éé."
Go góshdiyé dlö' binant'a' silîî lëk'eh. Díjîî yúgo goshdiyé t'ah dlö' binant'a' ninlîî."
Peace,
RC
Posted by FedUp on June 24, 2008 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry, what part of ILLEGAL do people not understand?
Marketrealist - good luck getting into Australia. You would have better luck winning the Lotto here.
Posted by tmarco on June 24, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's the 800 pound gorilla in the room: Babies born here instantly become US citizens. So 'Unknown 123', when you talk about illegals getting only limited medical care, you're technically right. The problem is that their 4 or 5 babies get EVERYTHING! That's what bothers me the most when the pro-illegal crowd tries to play down the horrible and crippling effects of illegal immigration. Their statistics and numbers do not take into account the mind boggling drain that these "legal" babies have on society. Medical care from before they're born, education, WIC, food stamps, welfare, subsidized housing, then unfortunately, law enforcement and jails. We need to clarify the 14th Ammendment, and stop the 3rd world birthrate that's overtaking this country. I'm baffled as to why no one in the government or the media is talking about this.
Posted by BHAK on June 24, 2008 at 2:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here Here tmarco!!! I agree with you totally, We need to stop all the free hand outs to the illegals. If we were to go their country we would not get everything handed to us for free. Our tax dollars shouldn't be supporting them, and that is basically what what is happening, Free housing, medical, dental, Wic, Food stamps, walfare payments. I for one am discussed by the abuse.
My Mother(64 yrs old) after working all her life and paying taxes was laid off from work and for the 1st time and had to go the welfare agency to ask for help in just getting her medication that she needed, which was medically necessary and she was denied! She didn't ask for any money, housing or food stamp.
The worker told her she didn't qualify because she was not pregnant, illegal and she didn't have any kids under the age of 18.
So I know where my tax paying money goes to..
Posted by esanchez on June 24, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bhak that only makes sense because usually a person in the United States retires at 65. In addition a person is considered aged at 65 and not 64. At 65 a person then can be evaluated to recieve his/her Medi-Cal. Another option is for your mother be disable by the state,this should allow her to be evaluate for Medi-Cal in the case of an individual who is under the age of 65 and with no kids under 18. I believe the system is well implemented, but you need to seek resources as to how to qualify if you believe your mother is potentially elegible. Hope this helps.
Posted by venturapagan on June 24, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rcamacho-I'd love to see a translation, please :) I wished I could speak our families Algonquin (Fox Indian) tongue.
I can personally vouch, as a natural born Citizen of the US, that getting help is extremely difficult. My ex was out on back injury (made most of the money) and I had a low paying job, we had two cars totally paid for (used for work). I was told that if I got pregnant, and sold the cars, they'd help. Our bills were higher than the incoming pay. Meantime, I find people in nice big fancy cars pulling up for their food stamps (signed cars over to a relative). I wasn't willing to lie, or get pregnant!
Posted by BHAK on June 24, 2008 at 7:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Esanchez, My mother wasn't 65 and in order for her to be evaluated by the state she would need to go to 3 different doctors and pay for the visits and exams out of her pocket which she had none. If she had the money to see 3 different doctors she wouldn't have gone to the welfare office in the first place but use that money to pay for her meds.
You know how hard it was for her to go there and ask for help? She never ever asked for it raising my sister and I alone ( dad was deceased) ..she would sometimes work 3-4 jobs at a time to just make ends meet. Then to be told that?
Posted by sue805 on June 24, 2008 at 9:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
we_r_right....What u said is so true Thanks
Posted by hotwildflower on June 25, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
BHAK, I am not in any way attempting to minimize your mother's situation. I firmly believe that we need to take better care of those who have worked so hard to build this country.
From what you are saying, it appears that she is now 65 and on MediCare, but since she was laid off, I am also guessing she wasn't injured or disabled since she wasn't able to get pre-65 MediCare for those who are disabled, but there are many companies that offer health insurance for part time employees. I know that isn't really an option that someone wants to do at age 64, but if it would have helped her out for a year (since the system wasn't working in her favor) then it's a route that might have helped with that burden.
Posted by myOpenyun on June 25, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Until our government REALLY decides to do something about the illegals this will never end. We all see it, feel it, but lord forbid we point our fingers at them. Its Racists! We need common sense and someone who is not affraid to take a stand for the USA no matter what backlasing he/her takes. Our children are going to suffer big time. Our government has no ones best interest in mind but their own families. They have enough money that none of this touches them. From the Pres. all the way down to Arnie!
Posted by myOpenyun on June 25, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
marketrealist I just scrolled down randomly reading posts and read yours. I think you misunderstand most of the comments. I dont think we the legal citizen are talking about you. We are talking about the illegals that come here, Some do work but alot of them hide themselves, steal SSI # get free medical/dental work. Over crowd our schools, hospitals, stores, streets. They live in one home with numerous family members and make that home unsafe with wall heaters etc... this is done by building makeshift walls or living in garages etc.. They are not suppose to do that. But they come here and do whatever they want even flying their own flags. Very disrespectful!!! We would never be able to go to their homes and do half of this without being thrown in jail and maybe never be seen again. SO yah people are tired of this kind of thing. I dont think any one is upset with the illegal immigrants that come here and do what the rest of us do,, pay taxes pay for medical/dental pay for everything basically. So if something like this can be done to help even the PAYING field then great! And if you are so unhappy maybe you should take a minute a remember what this country allowed you to do. Without it you wouldnt be where you are today. No one gives freedom like the USA but taken advantage of her is way out of control!
Posted by archer on June 26, 2008 at 7:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Immigrants do the hardest work in this country," said an undocumented woman identifying herself only as Margarita."
Very funny comment coming from someone who is clearly ignorant. Try telling this whopper lie to young Marines Middle east fighting or ironworkers and the like.
"but others include undocumented people sheltered from deportation for reasons ranging from asylum to having lived in the U.S. for more than 36 years."
Also a funny statement, '36 years' ?!!? still undocumented and still haven't become a US citizen...LOL. Sounds like a assimulation problem to me.
BUT why buy the cow when you get the milk for free!
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