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Same-sex couples plan Tuesday weddings
Photos by Julie Peters / Special to The Star Leslie Burton, left, and Christy Cantrell plan to be married Tuesday morning in the Ventura County Government Center.
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By Tom Kisken
Not long after she fell in love with her best friend from high school, Leslie Burton bared her soul to another old friend.
She wrote a long letter explaining the romance, its jolting impact on her family and how it affirmed what part of her already knew: She was a lesbian.
"I never heard from her again," Burton said, shaking her head at the suggestion the letter wasn't delivered. "I think she got the letter."
Burton and Christy Cantrell will be married Tuesday morning in the Ventura County Government Center, one of thousands of couples across California expected to take advantage of the May court decision that will make the state the nation's second to legalize gay marriage.
Cantrell, who is 47, will wear a long, sleeveless dress. Burton, 51, will likely be in black pants and a linen shirt. Joyce Cantrell,
Christy's mother, will be there; so will a few friends. Gay rights supporters outside the building will hand out small bouquets and bubble-makers.
It will be the third "wedding" for Burton and Cantrell, but the first recognized by the state. And, in a way, the ceremony is about other people.
"I feel like we've been married for a long time. In my heart, I feel like I belong to Christy," Burton said. "I guess it's a statement to everyone else — just that we're the same ... and deserve the same things."
It's not as if their lives are dominated by intolerance. They often feel as if they live in a protected bubble in which their relationship is accepted.
But sometimes conversations dangle awkwardly when one of them mentions the L-word. Sometimes people react to the rainbow bumper sticker on Burton's car. One person hurled a soda. Someone else smashed the side-view mirror and traced an ugly slur in the dust on the back window.
Cantrell, born and raised in Ventura, tells the same kind of stories.
"People who don't even know me hate me," she said. "It's sad. It's scary."
Clerk's office to be busy
Some counties are expecting hundreds of couples from California and other states to wait in long lines Tuesday to pick up licenses or to get married. Couples will be wed at a dozen stations set up in a large tent outside the Los Angeles County clerk's office in Norwalk, with ceremonies also being held in six district offices.
In Ventura County, same-sex marriages will begin at 8 a.m. Tuesday, performed in two rooms at the lower level of the Government Center's administration hall in Ventura. County clerk officials say they don't know how many walk-ins to expect, acknowledging that people frustrated by the wait in other counties could head to Ventura.
As of Friday afternoon 29 couples had made appointments to get marriage licenses, including two couples from Texas. County officials said the majority are same-sex couples. The number of appointments is about three times more than an average Tuesday.
About 11 couples are scheduled to be married that day at the Government Center.
County officials say they're ready for the possibility of protesters. But some of the groups who oppose same-sex marriage say they're focusing on the November ballot initiative that, if approved, would amend the state constitution and again ban same-sex marriage.
"We've got it on the ballot. We don't need to protest," said the Rev. Rob McCoy of Calvary Chapel Thousand Oaks. "Let's just vote."
'Home run' for gay rights advocates
To many opponents of same-sex marriage, the debate isn't about gay equality or discrimination or about anything other than what it means to be married.
"Homosexual couples are afforded every single right as a married couple," said Everett Rice, spokesman for the California Family Council. "Our agenda is very simple and that is to maintain our traditional understanding and beliefs regarding marriage."
Other conservatives who disagree with the state Supreme Court ruling that legalized gay marriage say it covers much more than weddings.
In a 4-3 vote, justices ruled state government or private businesses that contract with the government can't treat gays or lesbians differently in terms of jobs, housing programs or anything else, said Doug Kmiec, a law scholar at Pepperdine University and former constitutional counsel to President Reagan.
Existing laws already prohibit such discrimination but the constitutional ruling offers more protection and says that sexual orientation is no different in the eyes of the court than race or gender.
"This was a home run for advocates of gay rights," said Kmiec, who wrote a brief to the state Supreme Court arguing against gay marriage. He thinks the ruling could lead to debates over whether religious schools that accept government money can allow faith-driven teachings to influence whom they hire.
It could bring a battle between religious freedom and gay rights, he said.
Jay Smith will come to the county government center at 8 a.m. Tuesday bearing birdseed to toss toward friends who are getting their marriage licenses.
He sees the day as a turning point in a gay rights movement that surged in the 1970s but was pushed back with the HIV epidemic and then again with the failed promise of the Clinton White House to end the military's ban on gay activity.
And though California is among the nation's leaders in gay rights, employers and landlords still block gays and lesbians from jobs and property, he said. Often they victimize people who don't have the resources to fight back or don't want their orientation to be public knowledge.
The ongoing struggle to tolerate sexuality drives the debate over the killing of Larry King. The eighth-grader who told friends he was gay was shot Feb. 12 in an English class at E.O. Green School in Oxnard. Classmate Brandon McInerney, 14, is charged with first-degree murder and committing a hate crime.
The slaying reflects how people don't know how to deal with sexual issues, Smith said. The marriage ruling will push those same issues front and center, especially if voters reject the proposed ban in November, Smith said.
"If the highest court in the state and the people of California have said they're equal," he said of same-sex couples, "then at some point these other issues will have to fall in line."
Ceremony will be their third
Burton and Cantrell live in midtown Ventura with two dogs and two cats. They met eight years ago at the California AIDS Ride.
They are polar opposites. Burton, an accounting manager, is quiet and likes puttering in the garden. Cantrell is a nonstop talker who thrives on interaction and, if necessary, confrontation. Her hobby is building human-powered vehicles — shaped like anything from a chicken to a flatbed speed wagon truck — for kinetic sculpture races.
They seem most alike when telling stories about coming out. Delivered by each woman when she was in college, the news ended some relationships and in others inserted an uncomfortable distance that has never been removed.
"When I figured it out, I was very happy," said Cantrell. "Not everyone was as happy as I was."
When Vermont became the first state in the union to recognize civil unions, Cantrell and Burton went there to exchange vows before a justice of the peace. Burton's family came from Massachusetts to the ceremony.
They scheduled a West Coast ceremony at a Religious Science church in Ventura a year later. Joyce Cantrell, Christy's mother, hosted the reception, serving enchiladas and two kinds of cake.
They see the ceremonies as public affirmation, a way to piece together the support system and traditions they think society provides for heterosexual couples.
They're getting married on Tuesday because the state finally says that they can. They still worry about what happens to their license if voters ban gay marriage in November, a question legal experts say would ultimately be battled out in courts.
And they think it's telling they have to get married three times before the government says it's legal.
"To me it feels like another step," Burton said, piecing the marriage into the struggle for civil rights. "Part of me is grateful for that. Part of me is like, Why is this a big deal?' "
Posted by tcescalante on June 16, 2008 at 7:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
what is happening to us as a civilized society? This new allowing of gays t marry is a moral and social decay of what this country was founded on "IN GOD WE TRUST".
we are not trusting in God if we stray from what he wants from us.
The gay issue is wrong, there is no moral or scientific grounds to it being ok.
i also feel that marriage is base of the mutual love for one another, but when you are acting in and cause someone else to live against the moral and scientific truth, as well as gods will will for one another, there is no love in that.
I am not a gay basher or homophobic person, i just know that there is no way possible for gays to love each other, in fact what they are doing to each other is selfish hatred for each other out of the fact that they are living immoral and love less lives.
Posted by John61608 on June 16, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Congratulations to all the couples being married today, may you all have long and joyous lives together.
Hallelujah!(:
Posted by MrMAB on June 16, 2008 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The only thing wrong with the gay marriage issue is that it brings all of the dregs of society--like "tcescalante" above--to the surface. In todays world, the level of complete ignorence that spews out of some peoples mouthes is phenomenal. Do these people even bother to read about these couples who havce been together for 10-20-30 years? How many straight couples do you know who have stayed together that long? If you want to remove the source of "moral decay" from amrriage, go after the TV shows that have reduced it to a game show where you choose your partner from a lineup. But to say a monogamous couple who are truly committed to each other are the ruin of civilized society? Gimme a break...
Posted by vcmann on June 16, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh yes tcescalante, you are now a published homophobe, but it's ok. Gays and Lesbians don't need you to understand or approve. Love happens, and nothing or nobody can prevent it.
Posted by MrMAB on June 16, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EXCELLENT! ;o)
Posted by SGBurton on June 16, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yo, Leslie and Christy, happy wedding!! Wish I was there.
This whole issue is ridiculous, I don't quite grasp what it is about the USA which fosters this kind of intolerance ... with a new administration the tide will turn, inevitably, and, I hope, rapidly.
Again, congratulations, kids.
Posted by mal1910 on June 16, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
the definition of tcescalante = ignorance.
I was always taught that God loves all of us, and that we are supposed to be good to each other and accepting.
I never push my beliefs onto anyone else, but it bothers me when people play the religious card but sound like such hypocrites!
Posted by sdetatae on June 16, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Best wishes to ALL of those getting married in the near future!
:)
Posted by robert22805 on June 16, 2008 at 1:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
who the hell cares if two gay couples want to get married, ive got other stuff to worry about like high gas prices, and the cost of a loaf of bread.LIVE AND LET LIVE!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 16, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision. ~Lynn Lavner
Posted by Freedom1 on June 16, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are the "dregs of society" it simply means they have beliefs that are different than yours. The reasons for their beliefs are just as important to them as yours are to you. So stop the name calling! What no one likes is the manipulation that goes on by politicians and even Supreme Court justices to force their beliefs on society that fundamentally changes that society. California leads the way in this technique and although it may endear Mayor Gavon Newsom to some of you, it causes a lot of anger in others. It will be interesting to see what happens in November.
Posted by getreal on June 16, 2008 at 2:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with trescalante and this is my opinion as well as his. We, like like all the above commentators have a right to OUR opinions and have the free right to state them. God does not believe in gay reltaionships. While he does believe we should not pass judgement, gay relationships to him are a sin. These marriages in no way affect my life or anything I do but like I said above, everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. I have many friends that are gay. I do not judge them or think any less of them I just know God feels they are living their lives in sin. Again, has no affect on my life, just my belief and because of the Constitution, I can freely state whatever I choose.
Posted by MrMAB on June 16, 2008 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
On the contrary, Freedom1, if someone is stating a "belief" then they should start a sentence with "what I believe is..." of "in my opinion...". My wife and I have many gay friends, and all are currently in long-term monogamous relationships. All of these people have always known that they were gay...none woke up one morning and decided to "switch sides." Those who claim that homosexuals have any choice in who or what that are truly ARE ignorent. They are letting their personal feelings get if the way of fact. (Honestly, why would someone CHOOSE a lifestyle that would subject them to the type of hate, prejudice and public opinion like this group gets?!?)
So, if taken at face value that these people simply are living as God made them, who are the people on these blogs to decide that they don't deserve the same chance at happiness that any of us do? And to claim that two gay people are incapable of loving each other as trescalante did goes well beyond ignorent to a level that DOES call for some extent of name-calling. I'm sorry, but stupidity like that--and people that equate gay marriage with pedophelia and beastiality-- deserves "special recognition..."
Posted by Tom_Johnston on June 16, 2008 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with MrMAB.
What "tcescalante" posted was obviously a personal opinion, but one in which he bases his belief on "facts". Facts that are asserted but far from provided or substantiated.
Clearly there can be love in same-sex relationships. I won't say it happens all the time, but then it doesn't in hetero relationships does it?
The sum of "tcescalante's" argument seems to be that gay love or marriage is wrong because it is against the Judeo-Christian concept of what a divine being wants.
Again, people of this persuation need to get over the fact that MOST of us don't want to live in a theocratic state. You believe what you want, but I, and many other choose to believe differently
Mind your own conduct, we'll mind ours.
Posted by Tom_Johnston on June 16, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh...one more thing...congrats in advance to all the newlyweds tomorrow!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 16, 2008 at 4:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, we are all free to believe what we want to believe.
But if same-sex marriage does not affect you, harm you, or impact your life in any way, shape, or form...why do you care if same-sex couples are allowed to marry?
Okay, so you might believe it's a sin. Your right to believe that. But what does that have to do with two people, that you most likely don't know, getting married?
There is so much more to a person than sexual orientation. Why is there so much focus on this?
We have bigger fish to fry people. The best we can hope for is that people are lucky enough to find a soulmate; someone to love and who loves them back.
Good luck to all of the newlyweds!
Posted by Legal_American on June 16, 2008 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow! jw1000 is lost. Does he really believe all that bull? Sounds like he is just a follower of the Bush haters. I have no problem with gays & lesbians; I just don't know why it is so important to them to stick it in everyone’s face??? Why can't they just be happy being with their partner? Are they trying to make a statement? And as to them staying together longer than opposite sex marriages, that is NOT true. Statistics show that the percentage is very close to the same. The statistics also shows that the transmission of AIDS is quite a bit higher in gay men. I believe that god created an @$$ as an exit hole only. I just have to ask what’s next... Will we have brothers marrying their sisters, will we lower the age limit to maybe 12 years old and what will we consider transvestites?
Posted by MrMAB on June 16, 2008 at 4:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Legal_American...don't forget about people marrying barnyard animals! You know that those preverts will be wanting that next! And blow-up dolls! And kitchen appliances!
Posted by MrMAB on June 16, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh...and in regards to the "exit hole" comment. I'd honestly like to see a show of hands of both married and single HETERO couples who haven't gotten "adventurous" at some point. Truth be told, most everything being done by gay couples are done by straight couples as well, so that whole line of attack is pretty much a "bum rap!"
Sorry...hadda say it...
Posted by BeaHappi on June 16, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Legal_American...why do you care if they are married? Does it impact you or your life if they are married?
I honestly want to know the answer to the question. If it doesn't impact you, what does it matter?
It's only "in our faces" because of all of the hoopla against it. These are people, in long-term relationships, who want to make the ultimate relationship commitment...marriage.
It's not like the marriages will be consummated in public; relax everyone!
MrMAB...LOL!
Posted by vcmann on June 16, 2008 at 5 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Congratulations to all of the newlyweds.
This is a great moment in American History. Don't look back at the difficult road that has taken us here but look forward to the bright future ahead.
We are contributing members of society and we deserve every happiness. Ignore those who would rather see us downtrodden and miserable, they don't pay our way.
Posted by del on June 16, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I would not marry any blow-up doll; they're just full of hot air. My first two wives were bad enough.
So "much ado about nothing"; seems as though there is a Shakespeare play in there somewhere.
Posted by pointofview on June 16, 2008 at 5:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am both shocked and saddened at the idea that in this day and age we are talking about amending the constitution to deny a specific set of citizens equal access to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Yet again we ignore the separation of church and state. After all, we would not change the 10 commandments for political reasons we should not be changing the state constitution for religious ones.
Posted by nannyfo1 on June 16, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
pointofview, sorry to burst your bubble, there is no seperation of church and state, as we have come to understand it, in the constitution. There is, however, an amendment preventing congress from passing a law that either establishes a state religion or prohibits the free expression of religion. Part of our free expression of religion is in the voting booth. Enjoy the marriage license, it will be moot after November.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 16, 2008 at 6:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
pointofview - I totally agree with you! Why in the world this is even being put to a vote is beyond me.
If people oppose for religious reasons they should be praying for those who are "sinning" not voting against their right to marry.
Well, somewhere in California right now same-sex couples are being married. Good for you!!!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 16, 2008 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
nannyfo1...obviously you believe that homosexuality is wrong but why do you care if same-sex marriages take place?
I honestly would like to understand. Other than your personal belief that it's not right...what harm is this causing you personally?
Posted by UncleRico on June 16, 2008 at 7:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If you're against gay marriage, don't marry someone of your same sex. If you believe that gay marriage is a sin, let God sort it out. Pretty simple really.
Posted by Face on June 16, 2008 at 7:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The "Righteous" aren't just happy living their life for God, they want to make sure you are living your life for God (according to their tenets of course) as well. Sound familiar? Sound like the Moral Police in Iran or Saudi Arabia making sure men have short hair and women are not exposing their ankles... chasing them down the street whipping at their heels with whips.. Fundamentalists need to stop worrying about others and worry about the log in their own eye.
Posted by nannyfo1 on June 16, 2008 at 7:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BeaHappi, thank you for being cordial. I'll see if I can answer your question from my perspective. I am devoutly Christian. I am probably what most would refer to as "fundamental". The Bible says that homosexual behavior is sinful. Of course, it says lots of things are sinful. I spend most of my time trying to keep my own life right. I am certainly not a picture of perfection. I would never venture into someone else's private matters to tell them what I think. It's none of my business. But a marriage license is not a private matter, rather a public one. When the state is issuing a license, essentially the people of CA are recognizing and validating, legally, that marriage. To not say no is to say yes. I can't do that.
Posted by Tom_Johnston on June 16, 2008 at 9:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"nannyfo1" a marriage license, itself a construct of times intended to prevent "race mixing" is a civil matter. It is not religious. You don't have to accept or approve. In a free society however you many have to tolerate behavior that while lawful (and one might add, not injurious), does not measure up to personal belief systems.
In point of fact, you would indeed seek to venture into the private matters of others, and it's not to tell them what you think, it is rather to impose your standards of behavior on them.
Your church does not have to officiate or approve, nor do you. However marriage is both a spiritual (a highly variable and debateable concept) and a civil contract (with clear legal rights, responsibilities and priveliges).
Your personal beliefs are not the issue. Rights in a Free Society are.
Posted by wonderman on June 16, 2008 at 10:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ok, ok, ok, I don't care what two men (women) do with each other behind close doors but heaven forbid don't start walking down the street with your arms across each other or holding each other's hands or KISSING each other in public! God did NOT put Adam & Adam or Eve & Eve on this earth, why is that you ask? BECAUSE HE PUT 2 DIFFERENT SEXES TO BE FRUITFULL AND MULTIPLY! PERIOD! Can't see two men or women making love and having a baby.
Posted by deepwater805 on June 17, 2008 at 4:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My only question is: Who gets what when the gay marriage becomes a gay divorce? I'd hate to be a judge at that hearing. A fly on the wall maybe....
Posted by Legal_American on June 17, 2008 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
In the year 2000, the people of the state of California voted to uphold marriage as “The union of one man and one woman” and in November, they will vote on a state constitutional marriage-protection amendment. Now, because of the California Supreme Court's refusal to delay its ruling ordering same-sex "marriage" until the vote and because California has no rule limiting "marriages" to state residents, thousands of homosexual couples from all across the nation will rush to California to get "married" in the months ahead. These couples will then return to their home states and file lawsuits demanding that their "marriages" be recognized. This is just what Gloria Allred wants, more lawsuits. She will make an unbelievable amount of money throughout the United States.
We Californians need to stand up against this ridiculous abuse of the legal system and not be afraid to speak our minds. Today we had major television networks showing a live feed of a lesbian couple that had been waiting to get married for quite a long time and who do you think was standing there with a big smile on her face?
Gloria Allred.
Posted by myOpenyun on June 17, 2008 at 8:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Gloria Alred also made reference in that feed on television that God is a SHE. I would love to be at the gates with GOD the man when she tries to proclaim her belief in him then. I dont really care who gets married to who. But what really bothers me is that US that believe in the Ten commandments,the pledging of our flag in schools, etc... is are being pushed to the curb while these other issues are being brought to light and are winning??? I for one would rather believe in the word of God now, then to all of a sudden on my death bed realize theres no way in with out him. He may be a forgiving Man as some of you believe but like many he will forgive but he will not forget!
Posted by BeaHappi on June 17, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"BECAUSE HE PUT 2 DIFFERENT SEXES TO BE FRUITFULL AND MULTIPLY! PERIOD! Can't see two men or women making love and having a baby."
wonderwoman - what about heterosexual couples who marry but have no intention of having children; or who physically are not able to have children. With your argument they should not be allowed to marry.
nannyfo1 - although we obviously do not agree on this subject, I appreciate your response to my question.
Posted by shuldbworkin805 on June 17, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Everyone deserves to be happy. The thing that would concern me the most would be how many young couples will marry just to jump on the bandwagon,and in turn have to divorce thus making a mockery of marriage as we have seen done in Hollywood so often.
Posted by freethought on June 17, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm not sure why everyone even gives comments like the one by tcescalante a second thought. Here's a little advice for future posts like his (hers?) - it is only meant to inflame for the purpose of drawing attention. If you notice, tcescalante hasn't made a single post since his (her?) message of hate. I'm not even convinced that he (she?) actually believes what he (she?) wrote. So, just drop a quarter in his (her?) tin cup and keep moving.
Posted by nunyabiznus on June 17, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ONCE AGAIN GETREAL, NEEDS TO "GET REAL".
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT GOD SAID? WHERE YOU THERE WHEN HE SAID IT? YOUR SO IGNORANT,BUT LIFE WOULD BE BORING WITHOUT THE PEEPS LIKE YOU, AND YES, YOU ARE FREE TO SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, JUST LIKE ME.
Posted by myOpenyun on June 17, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
There reason that gay couples have stayed together for so long as stated above, is because they werent married! Being married is way different then just being together and having the freedom to leave without the loss of income, etc... Besides there usually arent any children to worry about with child support etc.. Lets see how long these couples stay together now, now that its a legal and binding relationship. Again I dont care who marries who thats each to his/her own. But two plugs dont work and neither do sockets. Only when there is man made parts does any of this remotely work. There is a reason for a man and woman. But one's heart is a different story. Now to all of you who may jump on my opinion, its just that, mine and mine alone and you arent going to change how I feel. If you are entitled to believe in your beliefs then so am I.
Posted by MrMAB on June 17, 2008 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
wonderman - In addition to that last comment being insulting towards hetero couples who choose not to have a child, there are older couples, couples who for one reason or another CANNOT have a child, and those who choose to take what I consider to be the highest moral and socially responsible road and adopt. Are you saying these people should not get married either because they're not reproducing?
Posted by freethought on June 17, 2008 at 11:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I just love when people like wonderman start spouting the whole religious thing on homosexuality and creationism like it's proven fact. Were you there when it all happened? No. All you have is a poorly translated version of a Judaic myth, which, by the way, has two different versions of the account you mentioned - both outlined in Genesis. Try sticking to the facts. It'll provide more stable backing to your case.
Posted by wonderman on June 17, 2008 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NO, NO, NO, NO!!! what's the bottom line here? Ok all you homosexuals out there WHY IS THERE A MAN AND A WOMAN???? WHY!!! use your brains; no im not mad i'm just trying to get my point across, I love how you take the TRUTH and skew it to your liking and to your belief's and stop using the lines of "old heterosexual couples or couples that can't have kids" you all know what i'm talikng about. when Jesus come's back we will all know the truth and it's going to be sooner that you think.
Posted by MrMAB on June 17, 2008 at 1:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Again, this isn't about religion or reproductive rights. It's about eqality for all people as guaranteed by the Constitution. If these people are to be judged by a higher power sometime in the future, then that's between them and the higher power. You don't get a say in it! If everyone focused on being the best person that he/she can be instead of trying to dictate how they believe others should behave, imagine how much nicer a world we would live in...
(Isn't this where we all join hands and sing?)
Posted by MrMAB on June 17, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And as far as the "truth" goes, which "truth" are we talking about? If you're making a religious argument, each religion has it's own truth. Some say homosexuals are going to hell in handbasket. Others say they're as loved as any of Gods children. Some promote slavery. Some teach that certain races are higher up on the food chain than others. Some teach women should be seen and not heard. Some teach they shouldn't be seen, either. Some teach that turning yourself into a human bomb and blowing yourself up while taking as many of your "enemies" with you as possible will get you into heaven...and a busload of virgins to boot!
Religions are, in the end, belief systems...not statements of universal fact. Whatever the "truth" may be, we'll find out soon enough.
Posted by getreal on June 17, 2008 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
nunya how do YOU know what God DIDN't say? You don't! Like I said, I have my beliefs and you have yours. At least Freethought is intelligent enough to research the religion he doesn't believe in and share his opinion with intelligence. All you choose to do is sling names becuase you haven't done your homework.
Posted by Freedom1 on June 17, 2008 at 2:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One part of this new "law" is being overlooked. Thanks to Attorney Allred and her clients, homosexuals will now be given protection as "minorities" under the law (at least in California). So when your employer starts looking for a new hire and needs to meet his/her hiring criteria under EEO they will now set up a category for GLBT (Gay, Lesbiasn, Bisexual and Transgener)and will be requied to hire, pay and promote these individuals based on this sexual orientation rather than their qualifications or accomplishments just as they do now based on race and sex. I can see the new employment application now......
Posted by getreal on June 17, 2008 at 2:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why can't the best person get the job, raise, etc.? I've never understood this. Like when clubs are formed, minorities get to form the clubs but when a caucasion wants to form a club its racist? I don't get it. If everyone is fighting for equality than it should be equal, No minorities, no majorites, just plain equal. I've always felt that it's the minorities that keep themselves segregated.
Posted by freethought on June 17, 2008 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry, wonderman, Jesus won't be coming back anytime soon. He was in the theaters some years ago. Maybe he will if Mel decides to do a sequel.
Posted by BeaHappi on June 17, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
When Jesus does come I have a laundry list of things that I'd like to discuss and same-sex marriage is not on that list.
I'd like to talk to him about:
- people in our world who are starving
- senseless wars
- horrific, monsterous people who harm children
There are other things but I'm sure that Jesus will need to speak to others too so I won't take up all of his time!
Posted by gramagracie on June 17, 2008 at 10:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am a Christian and I believe a marriage consists of one man and one women...but I am not here to judge anyone...only God can judge and He waits until we die. There are only ten commandments and not one states anything about marriage just adultery...there are many many sins...many..too many to state here, but one thing I try to live by is...I love my neighbor as I love myself!
Posted by freethought on June 17, 2008 at 10:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
gramagracie - your last sentence says it all. If we all could just do that one thing, life on this planet would be grand.
Posted by A_Concerned_Citizen on June 18, 2008 at 8:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I read over these blogs and see a lot of opinions based on homo-sexuality. The key word here is “opinion”. And even more so the words “personal opinion” should be utilized when this topic is discussed. I notice people have their religious point of view to scientific explanations. The real question you should ask yourself is why you either accepted or oppose homo-sexuality. Let’s take a look at what is fact or fiction. Well we do know for a fact we have no choice in what gender or race we are born. The U.S. Constitution protects us base on this. Now ask yourself can an individual decide they are gay. Let me give you an example. I am a 42 year old man, I am at a bar and I get into a fight with another man, we both are arrested base on this fight. During this scrimmage there is no mention of this man being gay, but is brought up at court, and now to the assault charge they add gay bashing, is this just? What proof can be provided to confirm he is gay? You have no choice what gender or race you are but clearly a person can decide if he or she is gay. Should laws be written base on someone’s sexual preference?
Other facts that are usually ignored are “what can decide someone’s preference”? Can a traumatic event (i.e. sexual abuse or abuse mental or physical) or product of environment play apart.. Usually these topics are ignored when a person explains why he or she is gay. Remember they poor young boy who was shot in the classroom, both of these factors came in to play and yet gay and lesbian activist an act upon this event, and blamed everything but the right thing that should be question. Was their clearly 2 victims in this terrible event not to mention the school and community who were all affected.
The gay community rationalizes why they are who they are in several ways, but you rarely here mental disposition ever brought up. And if mental disposition plays a part should it not be address? The real question should lifestyles of other people be affected base on “Someone’s Choice” and or “Mental Disposition”? And as for religion, by saying things like “God is a forgiving God “ is a true statement from based on biblical text, but by saying this are you admitting someone needs to be forgiven? In this case why would they need to be forgiven if they are doing nothing wrong.? Think about it.
Posted by freethought on June 18, 2008 at 12:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
A_Concerned_Citizen - Already addressed your exact same post here: http://www.venturacountystar.com/news...
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