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Long arm of the law has a hand extended
County courts go after decades-old fees, fines
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Photo by Rob Varela
John Santa Maria of Simi Valley is being charged for court fees from tickets he received years ago, one as far back as 1987. He says the tickets were taken care of.
Photo by Rob Varela
John and Susan Santa Maria say the tickets involved were paid many years ago, but that they kept no proof of payment. Consequently, the state Franchise Tax Board diverted more than half of their anticipated income tax refund to Ventura County.
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John and Susan Santa Maria of Simi Valley were expecting a fat tax refund from the state this year.
When their $1,177 refund notice arrived in the mail, they saw a big chunk of it had been deducted and given to Ventura County. The Santa Marias got only $579.
The rest of the money, $598, had been intercepted by the state Franchise Tax Board on the grounds that John Santa Maria never paid two traffic tickets he got 15 and 21 years ago — in 1993 and 1987.
And when the couple phoned officials in Ventura County, they learned they weren't off the hook yet. They say court officials told them they owed $255 for another 1993 ticket.
The Santa Marias insist they don't owe a dime because the tickets were paid long ago. But they admit they can't prove it because they no longer have the canceled checks or receipts.
"Who keeps records going back that far? How can we prove it was paid?" asked Susan Santa Maria. "This was absolutely ludicrous to me."
But they are far from alone. They're among a growing number of people experiencing a stepped-up revenue program that has doubled the collection of court-ordered payments in Ventura County in the past 10 years.
Several factors involved
Collections of fines, court fees, victim restitution and other court-ordered payments have soared because of increased staffing, better collection techniques and legislative changes that have resulted in higher fines and fees, according to local and state officials.
In Ventura County, collections have doubled since fiscal year 1998-99, said Robert Sherman, assistant executive officer for Ventura County Superior Court. But with the uncollected balance topping $155 million in the county as of last year, the collection efforts are continuing.
Sherman said if people owe money, they must pay even if it's a very old debt "because it's not fair to the people that actually pay their fines and fees on time. Just because the debt is old doesn't mean that we should not actually go after it," he said.
There is no statute of limitations for collecting fees or fines, he said.
The county's policy of pursuing decades-old debts, however, stands in sharp contrast to neighboring counties. Officials in Los Angeles and Santa Barbara counties say they don't try to pursue such old cases because they aren't worth the expense.
Gary Blair, the trial courts executive officer for Santa Barbara County Superior Court, said they will only go back about five years to collect on fees and fines. Blair said it's not cost-effective to collect on older fees and fines.
The Santa Barbara County collection unit takes in $2.4 million a year solely on misdemeanor fees and fines. Three years ago, it was collecting $700,000 a year.
No old data for L.A.
Michael Gatiglio, finance administrator for the Revenue Enhancement Division of Los Angeles Superior Court, said there would be no efficient way to pursue debts going back 10 or 20 years ago in the county's files, partly because they are not in a computer database.
He said most of the unpaid fines and fees "trail off a bit" at five or six years. There are a few cases that are 9 years old, Gatiglio said. Debt going back to the 1980s is no longer carried on the county's books, he said.
"I don't have anything in my inventory that old," said Gatiglio. "These cases wouldn't even be around."
In Ventura County, older records were entered into a computer database in the early 1980s, said Richard Cabral, senior program manager of collections with the Ventura County Collection Unit, which was established in 1989.
In some cases, the county is still collecting debt from as far back as the early 1980s, he said.
"I would say (the) '80s is the oldest that I've seen," Cabral said.
The county doesn't have a breakdown by years on the amount of debt owed, said Sherman.
Many millions owed
The county court collected, or was receiving installment payments on, $32 million in court-ordered payments in the fiscal year that ended June 30, 2007, according to official figures.
For 10 years, Ventura County has used a private collection agency, GC Services in Irwindale, to obtain some of the money. The company keeps 24 percent of what it collects, Sherman said.
When funds are received, the county keeps the biggest chunk — 63 percent. The state gets 26 percent, while cities and other entities such as the Probation Department get 11 percent, according to Ventura County Superior Court officials.
Sherman said a notice was mailed to the last known address for John Santa Maria before his information was turned over to the Franchise Tax Board.
Susan Santa Maria said she and her husband received no mailed notices from the court's Collection Unit. "Nothing, absolutely nothing," she said.
She said the tickets were paid in 1993 by her husband's mother, who died three years ago. But they didn't keep proof of payment.
She said county officials should only go back seven years in their collection efforts because she considers it unjust to ask people to keep receipts and canceled checks indefinitely.
"It's really not fair," she said. "It's just not fair."
Sherman said the Santa Marias and other people who pay fines or fees need to keep receipts or canceled checks for as long as they live, to prove they paid.
"I would keep receipts indefinitely," added Cabral.
An attorney said people don't need to keep state or federal records that long.
Attorney Philip Panitz, a tax expert, tells his clients to keep tax records for at least six years because of IRS tax audits. He said the IRS can go back three years to audit a taxpayer.
If during an audit, the IRS agent finds there is fraud, the IRS can go back an additional three years to audit financial records.
Laws limit collections
The IRS can collect taxes on delinquent taxpayers for only 10 years, said Panitz, who is with the law firm of Panitz and Kossoff of Westlake Village. In addition, he said, state officials can audit a taxpayer's financial records for only four years.
However, until recently, the state had no statute of limitations for collecting on overdue state taxes, said Panitz. Now, state officials can collect on overdue state taxes for only 20 years, he said.
State officials, however, can slap a lien on taxes owed and renew the lien if they can show they've been diligent in trying to collect the taxes due, such as if the taxpayer has left the country or is dodging collection efforts, said Panitz.
He said the collection of fines and fees in Ventura County raises the question on whether officials have been diligent in collecting the overdue fees and fines or whether they have been "sitting" on the matter.
If it is the latter, Panitz said, "I think that would be highly unfair."
In an interview, the Santa Marias said officials weren't helpful when the couple began asking questions about the fines and tickets. They said they were treated rudely and were cautioned that John Santa Maria could be put in jail if they didn't pay the remainder of the money the county said was due.
"All they could say was, ‘You owe the money,'" said Susan Santa Maria.
Cabral and Sherman denied that county workers use strong-arm collection tactics in collecting debt. Cabral said GC Services is governed by the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act, and it is against federal law for debt collectors to harass, use threats or profanity or abuse people.
"They know, working for the court, they can't be making outrageous statements," said Sherman. "The court's reputation is on the line, too."
Partial settlement recorded
Cabral said there are seven cases on file involving John Santa Maria — five misdemeanors and two infractions. Four of the seven were paid, according to the county.
Cabral and Sherman said they didn't know why John Santa Maria would pay the fines and fees on four of the cases and ignore three other cases.
"We have the accounting records going back to that far in time. Chances are that our records are probably pretty accurate," said Sherman.
"For the most part, we're going to have the records here, and, sure, there is a possibility that we could have made a mistake somewhere down the line," Sherman added. "But for the most part, our records are accurate, and we would be able to tell them either way, yes we've received something or no we didn't."
Susan Santa Maria said on the most recent ticket that allegedly is owed, her husband's last name is misspelled: "Fanta Maria" and "S Maria."
"Their records are so inaccurate it's ridiculous," she said.
Cabral said he told the Santa Marias to send a letter to the court, requesting to have the fines dismissed based on their story.
But Commissioner David Hirsch requested proof of payment, and when the Santa Marias couldn't produce it, Hirsch denied their request. Santa Maria said they weren't allowed to speak to Hirsch about the matter.
Cabral said some of the Santa Maria debt was being collected by the court's Collection Unit and some by GC Services.
Posted by joncmac1 on December 7, 2008 at 4:31 a.m.
(This thread was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by Comments on December 7, 2008 at 8:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry, but I don't believe the Santa Marias story at all. I do believe that they owed the money and figured that they were in the clear since so much time had passed.
I do think that there should be a statute of limitations on collections. And, that time period should probably be 7 years. However, that doesn't mean that you get to ignore all requests for payment for 7 years and then when it's 7 yrs and 1 day you think you're free and clear.
Traffic fines stink, and no one likes receiving them. However, they are what they are and if you get one because you deserved one then you need to pay. I understand that there are hard times, but the years the Santa Marias had should've given them plenty of time to pay.
I've known so many people who have owed money to various places over the years who for one reason or another did not pay. Many become incredibly indignant when bill collectors start calling and hounding them for payment. Heck, I owed plenty many years ago (trouble w/ some credit cards post college), but didn't blame the bill collectors. Why do people who run up ridiculous bills feel that it's ok to not pay? Why do they feel it's ok to get all pissy at the folks who are paid to collect the debt? I suspect that if they loaned out money that wasn't repaid they'd be demanding payment as well. Running up debt that you know, absolutely know you can't afford, and then not making good on the payments is akin to theft in my book. I've never been able to understand how it's any different from stealing.
Posted by opfor2 on December 7, 2008 at 8:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OH well and why is this dude b----ing? Pay your fine fool
Posted by THX1138 on December 7, 2008 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
IMO it's ridiculous to expect people hold onto records indefinitely; 7 years is more reasonable. And, if there's an error, the fine should be dropped.
I had a similar issue with jury duty. I was called twice in a 3 month period and had to prove I had served earlier. Turned out they had spelled my name incorrectly - fortunately I just happen to have the first summons. I'm sure most don't keep a jury summons, but now I do..
Posted by sokol_kiev on December 7, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Good! The simple fact is this couple owed monies for traffic tickets... felt no obligation to pay them and ignored them... and it eventually caught up with them. Just like people who buy, and buy, and buy racking up hefty credit card bills, then decide to file bankruptcy to get out of paying monies they owe the credit card companies. It's all about personal responsibility. So I don't care how much time passed since this couple got these tickets... the fact is they owed the fines and are now being held accountable.
Posted by NottaNewbieNameGame on December 7, 2008 at 10:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Help!! Does anyone know WHY online court docket entries that specifically reference fines, restitution orders/payee info, and payments received, ARE BEING DELETED??? Poof, it's gone!
Who has the authority, and under what conditions can online court docket entries be deleted on open cases??
I have compared current online docket info with older printed copies. I have have gone down to the courthouse and inspected court files as well. Online docket entries have been altered on each of the cases I checked.
Ventura County Superior Court case lookup can be accessed at
http://www.ventura.courts.ca.gov/vent...
Posted by bubblegum on December 7, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You owe, period. Give me a break! Pathetic! You're just bummed the tickets finally caught up with you!
Posted by NavalAviator on December 7, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Gads, I ignored a ticket it the early 1960s. I got in on the freeway near Camarillo. I was off to the war and just plain ignored it (so send me to Vietnam). Oh, my god, they are coming after me!
Oh, that is right, I do not live in the People's Republic of California any longer! Whew, scared for a minute . . .
Posted by sparks240 on December 7, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"We have the accounting records going back to that far in time. Chances are that our records are probably pretty accurate," said Sherman. --Mr. Sherman should put down the bong.
Posted by vtaco93021 on December 7, 2008 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It's been my unfortunate experience that when you dont pay fines or monies owed to the county that it gets turned over to the DMV for collections. I.E child support,parking tix,traffic tix so when you want to renew your cdl or register your vehical they put a lien on it and make you pay before you can do it. Maybe you have been driving around with no license or the car was not in your name, MAYBE MOMS who payed your tickets ?
Posted by stopit on December 7, 2008 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This goes to show that when the County's budgets gets slashed and start to dry up,they make it up by going deep into the archives to collect.Ever notice lately how many Motorcycle cops are out?(revenue enhancement officers)ya think they're for our safety? haha
Posted by NothingButTheTruth on December 7, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
People in cases like this have done one of two things: 1. Made a decision to ignore the ticket; or 2. FAILED to keep DMV addresses for their driver's license or registration up-to-date. Some people think if they've updated the address on their registration that their driver's license address is also updated: WRONG. They are on separate computers and NOT cross-referenced. When (IF) you fill out a change of address at the US Post Office, that does NOT update your registration or driver's license records. If a vehicle gets a parking ticket, the computer sends the bill to the address of record. If that is not correct, but is later updated, then Court Collections SHOULD be able to get the money owed. I have no sympathy for deadbeats who are to lazy to keep their addresses up to date or to ARROGANT to pay their fines like others do. If you get a Traffic Ticket, you can go to https://public.courts.ventura.org/hom..., choose Case Information, then Agency Code & Citation Number and get all the details on your ticket. There are no secrets to doing the right thing.
Posted by NottaNewbieNameGame on December 7, 2008 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
My daughter retained records of a ticket she received and immediately PAID in 2003. End of story, right? Wrong.
For reasons no one to this day can explain, and without notice, her tax refund was intercepted to pay for the ticket.
So I checked the docket and saw in 2006 they discovered the overpayment. Even though they had the correct mailing address and contact information in ALL the various databases and all DMV records have always been current, for reasons no one can or will explain, not once, did anyone from Ventura County ever attempt to notify my daughter of the overpayment and return her money!
The way I see it, Ventura County illegally seized and financially benefited from a FIVE YEAR interest and penalty free loan!
I think an independent audit needs to investigate to determine, if possible, exactly how much cash and assets they illegally seize each year, and how much of that money is sitting collecting interest RIGHT NOW and why no attempts are made to return assets that don't rightfully belong to them. They take our money, then passively sit back in hopes we never figure it out.
Ventura County has a documented track record of error ridden accounting and financial mismanagement. Did we forget the Guardians Office scandal already?
Ventura County has everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose by illegally seizing our money and assets. It is also an abuse of power and authority to stategically target older cases that they know are almost impossible for unsuspecting defendents to protect themselves against.
If you legitimately owe money, then pay your damn tickets AND KEEP ALL RECORDS FOREVER. But when Ventura County decides to troll through some of these old cases known to contain unreliable, incomplete, and inaccurate info looking for money it's just wrong. They are leaving themselves vulnerable to litigation, which we, the taxpayers will pay for as well.
Ventura has manually shuffled these older cases from one computer system to another many times.
Posted by vtaco93021 on December 7, 2008 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The moral of the story is consumer be-ware. I in the past have had a collection agency try to collect money from me that had already been payed. "Cant blame them for trying" thats what they do.. Why are you snivelin anyways? at least you got something, Tax man tookith mine
Posted by nojustice_justus on December 7, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To assume, deduce, or believe these people didn't pay is ludicrous and very ignorant. I can't say if they did or didn't...I wasn't there nor do I know them.
vtaco93021--I am in concuurence with your first sentence 100%..."Caveat emptor".
Posted by live_for_purpose on December 8, 2008 at 12:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Trust me, if I hadn't paid a traffic ticket, I would not have a driver's license or a registered car. I don't see how this happens, except that he has been driving without a license or has a car registered to someone else. What other explanation is there? If you don't pay a traffic ticket, doesn't your license get suspended or even revoked?
Posted by AnnaWhaat on December 8, 2008 at 5:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
live_for_purpose ,My thoughts exactly!!!
And in 2005 I paid 304.00 dollars for some idiot that thought they could sue me! And I paid the fee to file the papers. In turn I WAS told that if I wasn't guilty I would get my money back. Well guess what, they have Nothing on the computer or anything saying or noting I paid the money. So I have to look for the darn reciept and take it over there. SO YES they do make mistakes...........
Posted by pjlove10 on December 8, 2008 at 8:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Lesson learned, keep your paperwork. Although, I doubt, in this instance, that those TWO tickets were ever paid.
Posted by NottaNewbieNameGame on December 8, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
AnnaWhaat -
All fee's paid (on what I assume is a civil case) or fee waivers issued are required to be documented on every single case filed with the court. They won't even accept a case without either paying the filing fee or submitting an application for a fee waiver, that needs to be approved, documenting that you qualify to have the filing fees waived. Lookup your case online with a name search at
http://www.ventura.courts.ca.gov/vent...
I highly recommend that EVERYONE go to the court website and using your name and birthdate conduct a DOCKET search.
-PRINT THE ENTIRE RECORD. NOTE HOW MANY DOCKET ENTRIES ARE LISTED AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE AND MAKE SURE YOU PRINT ALL PAGES.
-CHECK FOR ANY INACCURACIES OR INCONSISTENCIES
RETAIN THIS INFORMATION FOREVER WITH ANY OTHER DOCUMENTATION YOU HAVE.
Search each of the following databases seperately.
-Civil, Small Claims & Probate Database
-Family Law Database
-Criminal Database
-Music Database (This database contains felony and misdemeanor cases with violation dates between December 1989 and May 2001. Some cases may have been converted to the current criminal database and may not be listed in this index.
The records files associated with these cases have been destroyed and are no longer available. The contents of this file do not change or receive any updates.)
In addition, conduct a Grantee/Grantor search at the Ventura County Recorders/Clerks website for any judgements, tax liens, etc etc.
http://apps.countyofventura.org/ailis5/
Print and retain everything forever!!!!
Posted by yellowdvr on December 8, 2008 at 12:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just another case of the government screwing the little guy...
Posted by AnnaWhaat on December 8, 2008 at 1:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks I will do just that. I KNOW I have the check ,just haven't found it yet. Moving, not feeling like the norm. etc etc LOL
Thanks!!!!
Posted by yneemee on December 8, 2008 at 7:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If you remember where you have had checking accounts, you might be able to prove it by contacting the bank.
If you paid cash and lost the receipt....well better luck next time and SAVE your receipt.
This is probably one of the most common excuses for all late payments - the "I just know I took care of it" is probably almost used as often as the "check is in the mail"
Keep the faith ... and the paperwork ;-)
Posted by Twslv05 on December 8, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This could be a huge problem,especially with mistaken identity or just plain mistakes made by the tax board or court system which happens all the time.
What recourse would those who wrongly had their returns attached?
This sounds more to me like public seizure of property without due process.
If these people haven't payed their traffic fines then go to their homes and arrest them.
But don't take someones assets without due process.
Posted by vtaco93021 on December 8, 2008 at 11:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OOPS My BAD. I just re-read the story and I see where they did not recieve no monies, Sorry bout that, What a bummer though, I hope they did not write no checks with the assumption that a refund was coming. If that happend then there would be another lesson in life. DONT COUNT THE MONEY CHICHENS UNTIL THEY ARE IN THE COOP.
Posted by NottaNewbieNameGame on December 9, 2008 at 1:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
AnnaWhaat -
I know you just want your money back, but the bigger problem you may be facing here is if the court has NO record of your payment, does this mean that you DIDN'T pay that MANDATORY fee that must be paid BEFORE they will even allow you to file court papers? I'm concerned they may decide to send you to collections since they have no record of your payment??
Me thinks their collection odds are increased by seizing money from unsuspecting folks who probably paid their fines, but since they didn't know they needed to retain payment records for life, probably can't defend themselves against inaccurate county records.
Perhaps the county should audit their own decades old notoriously inaccurate financial records and bank statements BEFORE THEY ILLEGAL SEIZE the assets of their voting public.
The county is SEIZING ASSETS based on info maintained using very risky business practices.
What is the recipe for embezzlement? Underpay short-term employees and have them keep track of all the cash received from people that broke the law. Since they're not paid enough to know about standard financial reporting controls and accounting procedures, you better not burden them with silly audits either!
The underlying issues found during the Public Guardians office embezzlement scandal are found throughout county agencies.
The Grand Jury issued the infamous "Ventura County - A Failure to Audit" report.
http://grandjury.countyofventura.org/...
Posted by AnnaWhaat on December 9, 2008 at 5:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NottaNewbieNameGame , Yeah I paid the FEE to file the papers and had a friend with me. Also went up to the other floor and had help from the library guy in there. I have it, I just have to find it. Maybe I will this weekend since I have not as much to do and pretty sure I know where it has to be. I am a pack rat with saving every darn reciept haha.........just gotta find it. And it was with a check , so I save all of those .IT was from 2005
Posted by RandyGeckos on December 9, 2008 at 6:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
First of all, to all you slackers and idiots who can't figure out how to pay your fees: the Ventura Court does not equal Ventura County. There is no connection to the Public Guardian's office and the Courts. The Court is a state entity, not a County entity. The only connection between Court and the County is the distribution of the fees themselves, so put a lid on your lame conspiracy theories.
Second, if you committed the offense, or were caught doing something you aren't supposed to be doing, then chances are excellent you'll get fined. Know what else? You have it coming. That's how our society works. And this just in: Once you're in the system and have been fined, chances are excellent that there will be fees. Stop crying and pay your debt to society.
Lastly, the Courts do not exist as some scheme or scandal to steal money from the public. The Courts exist to -serve- the public. Get it? So while you may feel like you're getting screwed because you're having to pay a ticket (or, wait... wait... here it comes... a FEE!), other members of the public are being served by the Judges, Sheriffs, DA, and the Public Defender having the ability to put criminals behind bars for protection. You might be shocked to learn that it actually costs money to run these operations.
Go to the Court, pay your fines, and move on. Maybe next time you'll keep yourself out of the situation that landed you in having to pay a fine in the first place.
Posted by NottaNewbieNameGame on December 9, 2008 at 11:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
RandyGeckos -
We're not talking about the "slackers and idiots" who don't pay their bills.
This is about those "slackers and idiots" who take our money, yet can't quite figure out how to properly keep track it.
I'm talking about responsible people that did pay and have documentation and receipts showing payment in full, yet over a year later and without notice the "slackers and idiots" decide to go ahead and intercept a tax refund anyway, which then takes another couple of years for the "slackers and idiots" to discover the overpayment. Even though those "slackers and idiots" have all the current (unchanged) mailing address and contact info, those "slackers and idiots" NEVER ever even attempted to refund the overpayment.
You may not know this, but our courts have jurisdiction over a wide variety of legal matters, and most proceedings require the payment of court fees.
How idiotic to even suggest and assume that "missing" money issues at the court is exclusive to traffic and criminal matters!!
Unless your a complete "slacker and idiot" or just arrived from another planet, you've got to be aware of these ongoing problems, so stop it.
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