Posted by levotb on August 12, 2008 at 8:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Rep. Gallegly is a good man, but he's quoting the CBO which doesn't have the actual figures of how many illegals are truly in the U.S., much less CA. Unfortunately for Rep. Gallegly, the figures he quotes--"8% of the CA population are illegal aliens and CA has 25% of all illegals in the U.S."--are ridiculously low.

Take Redwood City, San Jose, Fremont, Sacramento and most notably, Los Angeles. Entire sections of these cities are filled to over-capacity with illegals, and not just Mexican nationals--Vietnamese, Chinese, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Central Americans, you name it! Nearly 40% of CA's population IS ILLEGAL, not 8%!! That's right--almost 20 million illegals (I'm counting anchor babies as well as they are not citizens, in my opinion) are in CA and because other states like AZ are cracking down on them, millions more will be coming here.

Apparently, the good Congressman hasn't read last October's CAPS Panel Study on the numbers of illegals. Most of the panel agreed that it's at or around 38 million in the U.S.

Most experts I know agree that CA holds close to one half of all illegals in the U.S. If that's the case, then there are close to 20 million in the state--not 3 to 4 million or 10% of CA's poppulation!

Posted by kelly13 on August 12, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you, Mr. Gallegly, for having common sense and caring about Americans. I wish we had more people in government like you.

Posted by turchotk on August 12, 2008 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It doesn't take a "study" or a PHd. to figure out the the "federal" estimates of illegals was way out of whack on the low side. Just look at our schools, emergency rooms and traffic. You don't have to live in Oxnard to see it every day! And what is the state and local government doing about it? Building more "affordable housing" more "farm worker" housing. Adding more traffic and taxing the infrastructure. Building more schools to "educate" the illegals. With figures showing that most will drop out, after not being able to pass the most basic skill exams. Sad to say Mr. Representative, this ship is going down and even with all your best efforts, you're not going to be able to plug the hole in this Country's failing hull. Thanks for all your hard work.

Posted by FedUp on August 12, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

levotb - I agree with you, except about the anchors. as much as I hate that law, it is what it is. so the numbers are probably a lot closer to what gallegly said, then what you think they are.
with that said, I think we need to change the anchor law immediately, and then build a big gigantic wall.
it is about time we start caring about american citizens first, and then worry about the other countries problems later.

Posted by cassandra2 on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Effectively putting an end to illegal immigration at the border is a very good idea, if for no other reason than to prevent dangerous people to enter. We have created a lot more dangerous people in the last few years and we are increasingly vulnerable due to the incompetence of the current administration.

However the idea that all our fiscal problems stem from this source is naked scapegoating. Gallegly, the faithful party hack, is falling under the cloud of all officeholders associated with this disastrous administration and is pulling out the red meat issue to compensate.

Moreover, illegals who work under phoney ss#s actually contribute substantially to the tax coffers and will never receive most of the benefits for which they are paying. This results in a tremendous addition to our treasuries both state and especially federal.

The economy is in bad shape. This is the root cause of our fiscal woes. This should also cut down on immigrants from within the US (hurray!) as well as illegals from Mexico and elsewhere. These folks come to work, not to receive benefits. As long as there is work, they will come. Since there is less work, there have been fewer illegals

40% of California residents illegal? !!! I don't think so.

Let's get control of our borders without losing control of reason.

Posted by FedUp on August 12, 2008 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Moreover, illegals who work under phoney ss#s actually contribute substantially to the tax coffers and will never receive most of the benefits for which they are paying."

I have never bought this argument one bit. in fact, it can be argued that this causes more of a drain on the system then those who are not paying into the system.
did you know that you can get credit for a new vehicle, with a SS#?? do you think everyone pays for the vehicle, once they drive off the lot? not quite. they have no reason to. all the information used to purchase the vehicle on credit was stolen information. this hurts either the person whose info was stolen, or the deceased family members who get mail for their dead, brother, mother, father, etc from the loan company looking for their money.

C'mon Cassandra. you can do better than that.

look at how much money is used to cover the costs of illegal immigration every year in our state. look at our state deficit. take out even half of the money we spend on illegals, and our deficit is almost nil. and then think about how many less hospitals would have to be closed, how many of our prisons would NOT be overcrowded. I can assure you, we would not be dealing with a battle over a prison hospital in our own backyard without even half of the illegals here.

Posted by cassandra2 on August 12, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't invent the numbers on unclaimed SS benes. What you buy is on you. I picked it up off a reliable source in this newspaper. Don't laugh. They have them as well as Gallegly and Murdoch.

Anyone who sells a vehicle without more checking than just accepting a SS# would not be in business very long so it would be a non-problem in short order, possibly never one at all.

As for the numbers I'm supposed to look at, how about supplying them? No, real ones, not Mr. Levotb's strange figures.

I don't disagree that illegals should be stopped preferably at the border. Said so. I'm just questioning, very seriously questioning, that getting tough on illegals will solve our fiscal crisis when the evidence suggests it the economy stupid.

Posted by sokol_kiev on August 12, 2008 at 12:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I ditto Hamskid's comment... "Thank You" Congressman Gallegly! What a great article, backed up by indisputable facts.

Posted by bombero42 on August 12, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I can see all the racists here salavating over Gallegly's usual lies.
Illegal aliens pay the same exact tuition as legal aliens and citizens who have the same income and school records.
It may be unfair that citizens who leave the state and finish high school in another state are now charged out of state tuition, but that same rule applies to illegal aliens who didn't finish their final year here. The rules are exactly the same.

Posted by bombero42 on August 12, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tell me Turchotc, what gives you the expertise to look at the schools, hospitals and traffic and determine who is illegal and who is not?
If you are going by looks you are a racist.
Levoth, you don't get to pick who is a citizen to be able to inflate your idiotic numbers
The constitution says who is a citizen.
Perhaps you should tour some of our military cemetaries and look at the tens of thousands of Mexican Americans who gave their lives fighting for this country. Many of them were children of illegal aliens, people the some idiots refer to as "Anchor babies". That would include my three uncles who fought in WWII. Two of them were on the U.S.S. Tennessee during the Pearl Harbor attack.

Posted by cslaurie on August 12, 2008 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I just read that LA Mayor Tony Villa and crew are going to require that Home Supply stores build lounges for day laborers that hang around their parking lots. I think Camarillo should do that at Home Depot, maybe all the ones in Oxnard would go there. No wonder Kinkos etc moved out of state.

Posted by daugtherofimmigrant on August 12, 2008 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How long have we had this problem? WHat has been done?
Last year at my old job our boss called DHS and reported a company that had close 100 people with bad docs (in Thousand Oaks), did they ever show up? No.
I also have access to e-verify, it is a great tool if it worked properly. You can only see pictures of some people you are requesting eligibility of employment, you can't see every applicants picture. For example, I am a citizen my wallet is stolen another person goes with my birth certificate and ssc to apply, the employer verifys with E-verify, E-V will send you a response saying that this person is legal to work and is a citizen. But how do you know those docs really belong to them? Also sometimes you enter a greencard number and it will come back saying it is good to go, with a picture attached of who it belongs to, it should match the one the applicant showed you, now it does this on occasion, it doesn't always show you a picture so again how do you know these docs belong to the person applying?
DHS and our government need to fess up and admit they don't want to deal with this on going problem.

Posted by FedUp on August 12, 2008 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I can see all the racists here salavating over Gallegly's usual lies."

I love how the lefties consider anyone who is against illegal aliens, a racist. how is it being a racist, when you are sick and tired of illegals being given benefits that are paid for by hard working american citizens? I could give a rats behind what color they are, or where the heck they are from! if they are illegal, they have zero rights, and should be recieving zero benefits.

why should those who broke the law, be given anything, while those who are abiding by the laws are sitting in their own country, waiting in line for years and years????

and yes, our government is absolutely to blame. all the politicians who look the other way as their friends get rich off of cheap labor. we have laws in place. they need to be enforced.

Posted by nelsonknows on August 12, 2008 at 2:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero, when did Mexican, El Salvadoran, Honduran etc. become a race? According to Carleton S. Coon's, The Origin of Races, there are 5 races of Homo Sapiens-Sapiens on this planet, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, Capoid, and Australoid.
Would you mind telling me where it says "Hispanic" or Mexican or Muslim or Vietnamese is a race, in The Origin of Races or any other Anthropology/ Sociology text?
Note; 2 texts, "The Biology of Man" and "Examination of Racial Biology", say there is a 6th race, Indusoid , those of the Indian Sub-Continent.

Posted by nelsonknows on August 12, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero, if illegal aliens hadn't broken any laws and were being attacked because they were of another race, you might have a point, but the fact is, you don't have a point.

Posted by cassandra2 on August 12, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Arghh! I know my profs. had better things in mind for me than cleaning up after Nelsonknows. I feel like the guy who follows the elephants in the parade with a broom. Except elephants are kind of smart.

Modern thought strongly indicates that there are no races in a physical sense, that what you and I learned in Phys. Anthro. I decades ago was not the last word. The evidence from genetic traces, especially from the female line, suggests that physically we are all one race, and that the environment, not to mention propinquity, continues to hone us as a species into many types, subtypes, etc..

But "race" in the sense of ethnicity is a different matter--ethnicity as it might be understood as similar to the classic definition of "nation," people who believe they have a common past, present, a common culture, and hope for a common future. Like La Raza, por ejemplo.

We Americans have no race in this sense. We come from everywhere. Of late, we don't even have one language together. That is why often our sense of nationhood, our allegiance to a notion of nationality, of patriotism, devolves to really superficial and stupid things like flag pins, the kind of concrete things that many grasp because it is concrete and they are essentially Neanderthals and deal with objects better than concepts..

To the few who know our history, the liberal tradition of the Euro tribes transcends the physical persons--we are government by consent of the governed, habeas corpus, the First Amendment, no taxation without representation, separation of church and state and so on. Our liberal tradition from England, from France, from whereever, speaking for the dispossessed and the downtrodden, for personal liberty, economic justice, for democracy.

This is real glue of nuestra rasa. Ancestry is irrelevant.

Posted by FedUp on August 12, 2008 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"really superficial and stupid things like flag pins, the kind of concrete things that many grasp because it is concrete and they are essentially Neanderthals and deal with objects better than concepts"

so I am a stupid neanderthal, because I have a US flag on my jacket at work? good to know. I was not sure where I stood in the pecking order. I guess I should be starring in a Geico commercial now, instead of handling multi-millionare dollar accounts.

glad to see what you really think of those who actually still love their country enough to show it publicly.

why dont you just move to China. your goal is communism, is it not?

Posted by cassandra2 on August 12, 2008 at 5:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Whoa, have you considered taking a remedial reading course?

Posted by bombero42 on August 12, 2008 at 6:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Cassandra for cleaning up some of Nelsons's misconceptions.
Nelson, some people here think they can tell who's illegal by their looks. Others applaud Elton's lies as truth.
If he will tell some lies, how can we be sure of any of his statistics?
That is the racism I'm talking about. Being againt illegal aliens, by itself, is not racist.

Posted by Brittanicus on August 12, 2008 at 6:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Everybody who left a comment that illegal aliens must be returned to their home country. They should join NUMBERSUSA, CAPSWEB for free. They both have a huge following of nearly a million irate taxpayers. America has been sold to the globalists zealots, who want in their agenda the free movement of cheap-slave-illegal-labor to exploit. The Democrats specifically have a free-ride for all illegal aliens squatting in this country in their committee. If you think you as Taxpayers are being scxxed now, if they get AMNESTY your be forced to support their whole extended family. The Democrats already have cut funding to the original border fence. So believe me, millions more that are waiting for McCain or Obama to sign a path to citizenship declaration, that millions more will swarm the undermanned border.
Democrats must be demanded to sign the SAVE ACT (H.R.4088) enforcement only law in the workplace. So without jobs and extra funding for ICE and training for police departments, they will start Self-deporting. ITS OUR LAST CHANCE..?

Posted by bombero42 on August 12, 2008 at 6:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

FedUP, you can find the proof of illegal aliens 7 billion a year benefit toSocial Security and Medicare. This is from the web site of The Center for Immigation studies, an anti illegal alien site
"Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in these two programs."

Posted by nelsonknows on August 12, 2008 at 7:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

cassandra, I highly doubt if you've ever set foot on a college campus, you are more fit to clean up behind animals at the zoo. You are joke cassandra, laughable. No one would ever or should ever take anyone as viscerally myopic as you seriously.
As for bombero, your left-wing talking point gleaned from daily KOS, Moveon.org or Huffington Post are about as tired as it gets. Have you ever had an original thought?

Posted by bombero42 on August 12, 2008 at 7:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nelson, you make fun of other people but really display your own inability to reason. You refuted none of what I or Cassandra said.
Have the brains to at least point out what part of my last post was left wing.

Posted by nelsonknows on August 12, 2008 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero, anyone with ANY sense would reason that I was referring to your post replying to me. 'nuff said.

Posted by cslaurie on August 13, 2008 at 7:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

High Society:
Right on the money!!! No jobs - no illegals. They are here because of wage income disparity.

Posted by RebelGal on August 13, 2008 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

We haven't even begun to address the cost associated with the crime related to illegal immigration. Not just monetary but lives as well. Take what happened last week in camarillo as a good example. Our country is a country of oppertunity, we have to put laws down to protect the oppertunities from being abused.

Posted by bombero42 on August 13, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nelson, I know that you were referring to my post. What I said, and what is still true is that you were unable to give an example of why it was left wing. Or untrue for that matter. My point on the 7 billion benefit from illegal aliens was not from any left wing source. It was from a right wing source.

Posted by TOmom on August 13, 2008 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Not to mention that the City of Thousand Oaks could care less about all the illegals living in garages, RV's and multiple families in single family homes. They are all over!!! But nothing is being done about it.
They are like roaches the way we have been infested.

Posted by franks on August 13, 2008 at 8:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

cassandra2 and bombero42,

It's often hard to face reality. It's harder still when that reality flies in the face of a personal agenda. But here's a reality for you nonetheless: Illegal immigration is a potentially catastrophic drain on our state's citizens and resources.

No country's population can grow willy-nilly without consequences, and an out of control growth based almost entirely on the uneducated and unskilled is the worst kind. The massive wave of illegal immigrants in the past 20 years, encouraged and emboldened by the 1986 amnesty, is crushing our infrastructure, our education systems, social services, healthcare, law enforcement, and blue collar job opportunities (once the staple of the middle-class).

The advocates of illegal immigration are lately saying "it's the economy, stupid." But there are two economies, one of business earnings and government reporting, and the second that is actually lived by the American people. Illegal immigration only economically benefits the illegals and those who hire them. Since the savings realized by businesses from hiring illegals is pocketed by them and not passed on to us, we receive no benefit. And please don't tell me how much I save on my salad. Those paltry savings of hugely offset by the attendant costs of educating and caring for so many.

No one really knows the percentage of illegals who pay into social security or pay taxes through payroll deductions (with stolen identities). We can surmise, however, that 1) it's far from the majority, and 2) those who make little pay little, especially once they've learned the power of deductions.

All those billions that may have been paid into social security ultimately matters little to American taxpayers. Those are federal programs, and every study that bothers to look at the whole picture concedes that the vast majority of costs of illegal immigrants are shouldered not by the federal government but by local and state governments and their taxpayers.

California is broke. Since the burden of exploding numbers of poor (that our federal government prefers not to deal with) falls to the California taxpayers and not the federal government, how could it be otherwise? Add to that incredibly irresponsible and out-of-control growth in spending, and you have the resulting budget chaos.

Oh, and by the way, we’re also running out of water. Just a little nuisance issue to add to the discussion.

Posted by nelsonknows on August 13, 2008 at 9:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

franks, very well put!

Posted by nelsonknows on August 13, 2008 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I see bombero, if it comes from a left-wing site, it's valid, otherwise it's not? So much for holding to facts.

Posted by franks on August 13, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks, nelson. I'm guessing, though, that some may not agree with you. But I'd still be interested in their response.

Posted by AnnaWhaat on August 13, 2008 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

high_society , I agree! Don't know about the lawn part though. I mean you can't go around and ask everyone for a green card. And they are not on our employee account.

Posted by bombero42 on August 13, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nelson, you not only can't reason you can't read.
I didn't say the right wing site was wrong, and you still are unable or unwilling to say and prove what part of my posts are from a left wing source and you still have not been able to refute one point I made.

Posted by bombero42 on August 13, 2008 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks, I have never denied that there are many problems caused by illegal aliens. My points are, there is no need to lie to make the problem look worse than it is.
And you are dreaming if you think all our problems will be solved if they magically disappear.

Posted by franks on August 13, 2008 at 10:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not dreaming, and don't believe ALL our problems would be solved if they disappear. Just the associated problems of overcrowded and failing schools, closing hospitals and ERs, clown houses, gridlock, graffiti, gang violence, human smuggling, slave labor practices, declining blue collar job opportunities, crumbling infrastructure, etc. that are directly linked to millions of poor illegal aliens. If you don't understand that many, many of our problems WOULD be solved by their disappearance, then you are the one who is either dreaming or in profound denial.

Posted by FedUp on August 13, 2008 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

cassandra,
begin compliment:
It will take more than a "remedial" reading course to understand the jist of half of what you say on here.
end compliment.
It is almost like you are trying to impress people with all of your big words, and your other jargon.
I tend to see right through most of that stuff.

however, please answer my question.
did I misquote you somehow?

I agree with High Society. however, it is not my business to find out if a contractor is hiring illegals. with that said, I mow my own law, wash my own car, clean my own house, and on occasion pick my own fruits and veggies.
I am also ok with being an elitist. :)

Posted by BabyzDaddy_01 on August 13, 2008 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks:
"No one really knows the percentage of illegals who pay into social security or pay taxes through payroll deductions (with stolen identities). " You're correct....that also applies to the "supposed" statistics that support a $ amount assigned to the impact to the States Economy. If you've ever taken a statistics course, you'd know that statistics can be manipulated to explain anything you want. How can you say what you said above, but "KNOW FOR SURE" how much of an impact illegal immigration is the state's economy. It's contradictory or biased. The state is suffering from the same issues the rest of the country is suffering from.
As for the degree to which benefits are being drained, again, your argument is null and void as you can't tell who in the emergency room is illegal or not. Your education argument is ridiculous as the parents of those kids that attend local public schools spend money and generate sales tax revenues in their local neighborhoods as well as pay rent to a landlord that in-turn pays property taxes that go to fund that local school. Just like those parents of the student that is "legal". The education system is depleting in effectivness because year after year, they are promised money, but funding cut to go to special interests (not education). I'm not saying I'm FOR illegal immigration, but I'm trying to point out that your argument, while "wordy", is not well thought out.
As for the drought....come on....we live in a Desert...California's a desert! You expect to not have a drought while living in a desert?
Please think before you post.

Posted by BabyzDaddy_01 on August 13, 2008 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nelsonknows:
If you want to get technical, then let's start at the beginning where this land did not belong to Americans. Let's talk about how because of "ambition", the first Americans plowed Westward to lay claim to land that already belonged to Native Americans/Indians (whatever the PC term is this week). How was that legal? Oh, that's right...they established the laws that made that legal. As for illegal immigrants today, true "some" (by no means "all") commit crimes after they've remained in the country illegally, but most are here seeking to contribute by working and seeking jobs that they could not find in their own countries.
By the way, don't know where you've been, but it is WIDELY understood and accepted that the use of "race and ethnicity" can easily be deemed one and the same without needing to be a pompous @ss and quoting Wikipedia. To brow-beat someone on these posts over using the word "race" to describe a group of individuals from a particular region, is petty. I don't believe BOMBERO prefaced his statement with "scientifically speaking". If that's the best you can do...no need to post further.

Posted by BabyzDaddy_01 on August 13, 2008 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

High Society has a point in that the issue is jobs and more control over hiring. He/She understands that the reason illegal immigrants are here are for the jobs that they can get here, not available in their own country. Think about it though, if it was REALLY a problem the government wanted to address, they would have ALREADY done it. Illegal immigration in past years has been used as a policital "talking point" where people always choose sides and seldom stay on the fence. It's also easier to blame a population that does not speak out and stand up for itself.
Unfortunatley, most people concentrate on the image that right-wing wackos have engrained in most people opposed to illegal immigration. A good portion of the people deemed "illegal immigrants" simply over-stay their visa timeframe. The wall will do nothing but make the U.S. look like Eastern Germany...AND...people will still be here illegally because they never needed to jump a wall or swim through a river to get here. They just walked off the plane at LAX and never returned when their visa expired.

Posted by BabyzDaddy_01 on August 13, 2008 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

franks:
I've already addressed the schools issue (please read carefully), closing hospitals is also due to lack of funding and re-allocating funds from the budget, over-crowding in ERs is due to many LEGAL patients going to the ER for a fever and/or flu symptoms instead of TRUE medical emergencies, "clown houses?", gridlock? I doubt the majority of drivers are ILLEGAL immigrants. Most on the freeways are LEGAL and ride 1 to a car, thus causing the gridlock problems. Graffiti? Please, most are from Gangs (of which most of the area gangmembers are NOT illegal as hanging around gangmembers would draw too much attention and increase the chances of getting caught and deported (that's common sense and KNOWN in the Latino community), crumbling infrastructure? (OK "chicken little"), human smuggling (I'll give you that one), slave labor practices? (this has been an issue in this country (not just CA) since the beginning (first the Native Americans/Indians, then the slaves brought over from Africa, then the Chinese and the railroads and now the other asian countries and latin american countries working for what amounts to slave wages, but the government turns a blind eye when it helps feed capitalism (capitalism in the form of big business making a profit off of paying for services and products at lower wages). declining blue collar job opportunities, place limits on WELFARE and you get more LEGAL citizens out to work these jobs that supposedly are stolen by illegal immigrants. Again, it's just easier for you to blame those that can't defend themselves, says a lot about you though.

Posted by getreal on August 13, 2008 at 12:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't understand why this is even still an arguement. Illegal means just that ILLEGAL. If you are not here legally, you need to to leave plain and simple.

Posted by BabyzDaddy_01 on August 13, 2008 at 1:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The article is about the claim that eliminating illegal immigrants will solve our economic issues in CA. Your point is for an article that would be more like: "Should illegal immigrants stay in the country?".

How 'bout you change your name from "getreal" to "get-to-school-and-learn-how-to-read-for-comprehension".

Too long I guess.

Posted by franks on August 13, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

BabyzDaddy_01,

Umm...touched a nerve, did I? For you to not see the enormous negative impact of illegal immigration in all the areas I noted, you must be blind, deaf, or dumb. You decide.

Posted by getreal on August 13, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

babyzdaddy01 your name sounds more like you knocked up your illegal girlfriend and now you're "babbyz daddy". For your information I DO have a college education and I am free to comment on whatever I choose. I chose to comment on why are we even still discussing illegal immigration in any way shape or form. Like I said, it's ILLEGAL. Enough said, get over it, fix it, and move on.

Posted by Freedom1 on August 13, 2008 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"franks" - couldn't agree with you more. "BabyzDaddy_01" - your comments demonsrate that your life, or the lives of your family members, have not been affected by illegal immigration or the detrimental consequences, as clearly outlined by "franks," would not be in question. Great discussion on this important issue. Thank you both!

Posted by holdenon_2000 on August 13, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gallegy is an idiot. He does not state the profits, and taxes paid due to companies who hire illegals. The illegals who work with false social security pay taxes, the companies who profit more pay higher taxes. Look at what he has voted for or against.

http://www.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/...

He voted to approve Free trade with Central and South America, but wants to complain about illegals taking jobs. Wouldn't free trade to foreign nations also take American jobs?

Voted YES on allowing electronic surveillance without a warrant. He wants to take our rights.

Voted YES on emergency $78B for war in Iraq & Afghanistan. That is much more of a drain on our economy than illegal immigration.

Voted NO on more immigrant visas for skilled workers. These are people here legally, paying taxes, but instead he wants to send our jobs to foreign nations.

He wants to cry about the drain on our economy, but he votes for the most expensive drains to the economy, WAR.

Voted YES on decreasing gun waiting period from 3 days to 1. Wait if someone needs a Gun immediately then they should contact the police, not buy a gun. So lets let every angry husband and wife go get a gun immediately. Sounds like he supports crime.

Voted NO on protecting whistleblowers from employer recrimination. So if you turn your employer in, he thinks your employer should be able to fire you, sue you, even if the employer could be breaking the law.

Gallegy supports Military spending, helping corporations from following employment laws, giving our jobs to foreign nations, and not fixing our current problems.

The real solution on immigration is reform. Almost all farms in CA hire illegals, do you think we should pull all the immigrants, and let the crops die. That will cost CA, much more than the immigrants use of social services. Basically he does not have a plan, just wants to get red neck votes. If you want change show me your plan, prove it will work. All the facts point out that we can not take our low cost (slavery) work force out, without huge loses in CA's economy.

Posted by Hueneme1961 on August 14, 2008 at 8:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Thank You" Congressman Gallegly

Posted by Anita_Corona on August 14, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I was gonna read all of your comments but gosh darn they're just tooo long. Can we keep them down to three-four liners, please :D

Posted by holdenon_2000 on August 14, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

whatever,

I agree the illegal immigration is a problem. The problem is this. We need a low cost labor force, and hence immigrants fill that void. We have built the United states on low cost immigrant workers.
1700's African Slaves,
1800's Chinese Train Workers, Irish Coal miners
1900's Hispanic Farmers.

Our country would not be where it is today if it were not for the low cost labor that helped shape this nation. You are narrow minded to think otherwise.

I think we need to reward the hard work done by these workers to put profits, and taxes in California's pocket, by developing a migrant workers program, that bypasses the lengthy expensive VISA application process. Most immigrants who are working here would love to get Visas and work legally, but the process is very lengthy, expensive, and if you already have been here working you are denied, so why would a migrant farm worker bother? Obviously you know very little about his issue. YOU NEED TO READ! Walk in the shoes of an immigrant worker, eat at their dinner table, pick the crops. Until then you and every other bigot is just a cry baby, about issues that they know nothing about.

I bet you have eaten the fruits of their labor, had your car washed, lawn mowed, etc. If you truely are against it take a stand. Dont purchase vegetables, grow them. Don't take your car to the wash, wash it yourself. Don't buy a home built recently, build one yourself. Don't take a taxi at the airport, rent a car. Don't let you kids eat from the ice cream truck. Don't eat beef from Texas. Don't shop at Walmart. Don't eat at McDonalds.

Unless you do these things you are contributing to the problem by making a demand for this low labor work force. I bet you cant do all the above, so you are a hypocrite.

Posted by missing805 on August 14, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I dont mean to speak for high society and babyzdaddy, but I think the point they are trying to make is that Illegla Immigration is a problem, but not the way Elton is making it out to be. My parents were here illegally for 12 years. Worked hard and never filed for taxes, they couldnt. Never applied for food stamps, medicare, or any other type of goverment aid. We have become citizens now, but we always tried to not be a burden on this country. If you ask any "illegal immigrants" you would get the same answer. We would rather see all "criminal illegal aliens gone" Most come here to work and not create problems. Just like any race, you have bad apples. I know many Legals that are screwing the system. I understand the problems WE create, but we also create a lot of good. Also, the day I see "mike" in front of Home Depot looking for work Instead of in the corner of Target with a sign that says " Please help HOMELESS, God bless" is the day that I will agree with everyone that all illegals should leave. Immigration is a touchy subject, just like religion. We will all see it our way, and will agree to disagree.

Posted by ili400 on August 14, 2008 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

JUST LOVE you east-county white people.

I always look forward to your racist/middle-class-snob commentary about Oxnard, illegals, and poor people in general on here...

special shout-out to the North Oxnard vendidos and vendidas on here too!

Posted by Franko on August 14, 2008 at 1:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Missing805-True. Just like any other race we too have our share of bad apples. Most first or second generation Latinos that I know are here to contribute positively and shed the "vendido" image that ili400 refers to.
Mr. Gallegly should also focus his efforts to fix the problems here at home instead of wasting tons of money on the Iraq War, whether or not these problems are created by illegal immigrants!

Posted by oxnardian23m on August 14, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Most americans would not think about doing half the jobs illegal immagrants do! Although some immigrants do drain our society, of public service's, where would we be without them you wouldnt see any american picking strawberries and doing the labor jobs they do!!! there has to be a better way to control this problem for both citizens and immagrants

Posted by waterworld on August 14, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

cassandra2
Perhaps you are too young to know this but Social Security was intended as retirement fund. The assessments for this retirement account were to be provided by both the employer and the employee equally. This deduction is currently at 6.2% by employer and 6.2% by employee up to a maximum contribution in 2008 of $12,648.00. By the way in order to max out at $12,648.00 you have to make $102,000.00 a year. Therefore the out of pocket Social Security Tax paid by an Illegal Alien against a fraudulent Social Security Number amounts to 6.2% of his or her gross income. You are right they will not reap the benefit of this 6.2% but then again who’s idea was it to obtain a fraudulent Social Security Card?

All of the other payroll deductions such as Federal Income Tax, Medicare Tax, California State Income Tax, State Disability Insurance, are all taxes that even Illegal Aliens receive benefits from. You are incorrect if you believe they do not file tax returns. If they did not, IRS would be standing right there to take their pay checks.

May I also point out that given the typical incomes of Illegal Aliens and after the deductions taken they rarely pay anything in Federal taxes. This is a clear drain on the resources of our Federal and State Governments.
So please rethink your statements like “This results in a tremendous addition to our treasuries both state and especially federal.”

And for you who are somehow convinced that anyone that’s white is automatically a racist please notice I did not say Mexicans I said Illegal Aliens. It is up to you to determine if the shoe fits.

Posted by missing805 on August 14, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I gotta agree with some people here. When someone is against illegal aliens, they are automatically considered Racist. Waterworld, I agree with you, you might not like Illegal aliens, but does not mean you dont like Latinos. Its like saying Im against Criminals, and if most of the population of criminals is a certain race, that does not mean I dont like that race.

Posted by CaptainAmerica on August 14, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm willing to bet that Old Elton cannot give us the names of even 10 illegal immigrants, yet he claims they make up 8% of the population. Elton is scape goating hispanics the way Jews were scapegoated in 1930s Germany. Elton voted to waste a billion dollars a day in Iraq and for every dollar we send Washington DC in taxes we only get back 79 cents and that number has only gotten worse under Bush/Gallegly, Elton only cares about the rich.

Posted by FedUp on August 14, 2008 at 4:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I was waiting for a Social Security expert to chime in here! :) thanks for that.

keep in mind guys, the usual arguments the "pro" illegals have (not cassandra, because she IS against illegals) is that "we are racists, and we wont have anyone to pick our fruits and veggies". those are the two main arguments used by that side.

I do think we need some form of guest worker program. Ideally, we would utilize chain gangs to do all that work, but the ACLU (ugh) would have a field (no pun) day with that.

15 years ago, high school aged kids worked as bus boys, dishwashers, gardners, car washes, etc, etc. nowadays, you don't see that. the kids got lazy, when the illegals came in and decided that they would do the work for less money. the businesses and our governement are at fault here. however, it does not give people the right to circumvent our laws (which are not being enforced nearly enough) and come here illegally.

I have so much more to say, but I am getting tired of repeating myself.

Posted by FedUp on August 14, 2008 at 5:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I'm willing to bet that Old Elton cannot give us the names of even 10 illegal immigrants"

haha. good comment. Elton is a rich politician. he probably has ten working for him around his house right now. however, they are probably using someone elses name anyways, so whats the difference?

Posted by UCSBguy on August 14, 2008 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There you go Poppa, nice one!! I'm waiting for someone here to compare Nazi Germany-Jews to U.S.-mexicans.

Poppa please study German Nazi history before you comment such post. The Jews were LEGAL citizens of Germany and they've been there for a long time. They speak german, pay taxes, etc etc etc. So please do not compare Jews to the illegal immigrants of today because some jews might get insulted.

Posted by kelly13 on August 14, 2008 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

One more time....build the fence, secure our borders and enforce our laws. Makes sense to me.

Posted by ironwoman on August 14, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Fed up-

I agree with you completely. I really enjoy your comments, you make so much sense.

I also have to say that there are thousands of prison inmates who are illegal. Imagine what that costs? And now they are entitled to gold-plated medical care.

Posted by p.oherlihy on August 15, 2008 at 6:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The argument that only illegals or latinos will work in the farm fields is not accurate. There are many jobs there, but none for English speaking Americans.

The reality is that the Farmworkers Union has become a closed shop. It is a closed shop in it's hiring practices and in language. The proof is that this union does not recruit from local schools. Instead, it recruits from the masses of illegal workers. When was the last time you saw a Farmworker Union recruiter at any school or job fair?

The argument that Americans won't work agriculture is false. In the past, Americans worked in the fields. Now they are closed out.

Senator gallegly should be commended for speaking out on this issue. There needs to be some more discussion and debate. It is my hope that Obama or McCain will speak out on their plan to solve illegal immigration.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 6:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don’t have a problem at all with Mexicans, El Salvadorians, and Guatemalans immigrating to America, we are a nation of immigrates. This is all we ask:

1. Do it legally.

2. Do it at a controlled rate that allows the existing population to absorb the poor without shifting the economic balance.

3. Learn the language.

4. Be a part of America make it your home, as opposed to sending billions back to the economy of Mexico.

5. Leave the Mexican flag at home, if you are not proud of being an American go back to what you are proud of.

6. Add to the American culture don’t try to change it to yours.

7. Assist the authorities to rid your neighborhoods of criminals regardless of their nationality.

8. And lastly to coin the words of John F Kennedy (the Democrat Icon)
“Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country”

Nothing suggested here is any different than what was required by these immigrants:

German Migration of 1710
German migration of 1848
Mexican migration of 1848
Chinese migration of 1849
Chinese migration of 1865
Irish Migration of 1850
Polish migration of 1880 and 1980

Posted by bombero42 on August 15, 2008 at 7:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Waterworld, there was no Mexican migration in 1848. They were here when we stold the country from them.
The Chinese and South Americans who came here for the gold rush did not come here legally, they just came. There was no border patrol and there were no facilities in California to process immigrants.
Studies have shown that Mexican immigrants today learn English just at fast as did the Germans and Italians at the turn of the 20th century.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 15, 2008 at 7:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Quote: "In the past, Americans worked in the fields. Now they are closed out."

p.oherlihy, what history books are you reading? The bracero program of the 50s brought in mostly Mexican workers to work the fields. Before their ILLEGAL detainment, many Japanese immigrants worked the fields, along with Filipino immigrants.

Oh, you must mean the Americans before this group, the ones that we were nice enough to bring on pleasure ships across the Atlantic. (yes, this is sarcasm)

waterword:

4. Be a part of America make it your home, as opposed to sending billions back to the economy of Mexico.

That comment always cracks me up. What about the countles billions that Americans send to China when we buy their goods? Or the billions spent on vacations worldwide? How is that any different?

5. Leave the Mexican flag at home, if you are not proud of being an American go back to what you are proud of.

LOL, have you ever been to a China Town, Korea Town, Littly Italy, Little Ethiopia, etc. etc. They get to raise their flags, why can't we?

Oh, and those migrations you mentioned; Every one was characterized by the immigrant groups' desire to retain their native language and customs. No different than today's immigrant group. Look it up, in Chicago circa 1850s, German communities were printing the news in their native tongue.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero42
RE:
“Waterworld, there was no Mexican migration in 1848”

Perhaps you should read “Mexican immigration to the United States, 1848-1980” written by Quinones J Gomez. Source: Chicano studies: a multidisciplinary approach, edited by Eugene E. Garcia, Francisco

Re:
“They were here when we stold the country from them”

You should also read the “Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo” in which Mexico ceded 525,000 square miles, (not including Texas) to the United States in exchange for $15 million dollars (equivalent to $313 million in 2006 dollars).

The United States also agreed to take over $3.25 million ($68 million in 2006 dollars) in debts Mexico owed to American citizens. Mexico sold the territory.

If your reference is to Texas, at the time of the military victory by Texas in 1836 against Mexico, Texas was an independent territory and was not annexed into the United States until 9 years later.

If you still believe we stole the territory from Mexico even after buying it from Mexico, can you tell me how much the Spanish that had conquered the area from the Native American tribes over the preceding three centuries paid the Native American tribes for the same land?

Oh and if you tell me that was Spain not Mexico, then why didn’t you give it back when Mexico seceded from the Spanish Empire in 1821.

I suppose you think we stole Alaska from Russia after we paid them in 1867 $7.2 million for that territory?

You really ought to find sources of History other than Mecha.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 15, 2008 at 9:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Waterworld, did YOU read the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo?

Do you want to discuss the numerous violations of that treaty by the U.S. (property right protections, language protection).

The U.S. bought it from Mexico? Didn't Mexico refuse to sell, which prompted the U.S. to declare war on Mexico in order to "pursuade" them to sell? So, according to your reasoning it is okay if someone puts a gun to a peron's head and ask if they'll sell their car?

Posted by rjlebeck on August 15, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In the same year that Ronald Reagan signed an amnesty provision in the Immigration Bill of 1986, Elton Gallegly first won election as a member of Congress and has continued his stay ever since. Since that time 20 million or more illegal immigrants have moved to our country, many settling within the local confines of the 24th district which he represents. Based on the historical perspective of the last twenty-two years, my contention is that what Gallegly actually supports is the status quo. He wants to have his pinata and he wants to bash it too. His rhetoric would have you believe that he would be in favor of herding or starving millions of people back over the border, even those who have established homes and families in the course of two decades and are quite wedded to American culture and the blessings of liberty.

Any future immigration law must be fair, enforcable, and compassionate. The federal government, of which Gallegly is a member of, has failed miserably to provide the money and the manpower to enforce the laws that were on the books and instead chose to turn a blind eye to the problem as a favor to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. In the twelve years that Republicans controlled both houses of Congress, Gallegly was mute and ineffective on this issue at a time when he could have made the greatest difference.

In short, he is a demagogue that would rather have the staus quo in order to have the illegal immigrants around to bash while keeping enough of them around to keep wages depressed for the working class to the delight of businesses big and small.

Gallegly now assumes the position of the Great Exterminator, vowing to eliminate millions of people from our borders as if they were vermin or a pestulence. The present immigration problem is too broken and too complex to be solved piecemeal with simplistic and unevenly enforced solutions. Some of Gallegly's proposals are good ideas but they must be part of a comprehensive solution that includes a dose of something lacking in our congressman's approach, and that is a soul and compassion for people who have contributed to the fabric of this country, whether here illegally or not. Over the span of twenty years while Gallegly has been in office, he continues to this day to put politics ahead of people.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes I did read it

And no I don’t wish to discuss the treaty violations which in fact did occur, because the subject of the violations is not on point to this blog.

My response was to the assertion that the United States STOLE the territory from Mexico.

Using your analogy “is it okay if someone puts a gun to a person’s head and ask if they'll sell their car? Did Mexico pay for the land they seized from the Indians? No they put the gun to their head and said “I am taking your car” Did Spain pay Mexico when they invaded Mexico? No they put the gun to your head and said “I am taking your car”. And in 1821 when Mexico gained its independence from Spain did Mexico pay Spain? No they put the gun to their head and said “I am taking your car”

Seems to me this is a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

May I remind you, the vast majority of the population on the southern borders who sought independence from Mexico during the Spanish American War were in fact Hispanic.

Once again your only response to a legitimate discussion of legal immigration verses illegal immigration and its economic impact becomes a discussion about racism. IT IS NOT ABOUT RACISM it is about fundamental economics.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 10:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In case you haven’t figured it out I am a conservative I am also old enough to vividly remember the Bracero program which I was in favor of. I also was around to see Regan (a republican and who I voted for twice) in 1986 grant amnesty to 2.7 million illegal aliens which I supported. I was also around when he promised it would be the last time we would grant amnesty. I personally would also support granting amnesty to 20 million illegal aliens who have come here since 1986 on one condition; That the US provide a clear plan to secure the borders (not lip service) so that we would never have to grant amnesty again. NOT because I don’t like Mexicans but because we simply cannot economically accommodate the current rate of illegal immigration. I am also convinced that most conservatives share this opinion.

But instead of you joining in on this point you choose to call us racists and make excuses for violating our laws. You hide from the economic impact and refuse to acknowledge it. If you continue to support the negative impact on our economy you will simply turn California into the very thing you run from in Mexico to come here. How about becoming a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem.

Lastly if you have a problem with securing our borders why don’t you have a problem with Mexico’s hard line approach with securing their southern border?

Posted by harleyriidr on August 15, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Bombero your comment stating that illegal "aliens" pay the same tuition as legal immigrants and citizens is incorrect. If you are not legal you do not qualify for financial aid. If you lie you could get a state fee waiver but will then get caught when you apply for financial aid. The verification of status of these students are not done properly and that's something that needs to be changed by the State.

Posted by franks on August 15, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Borders have changed throughout history after wars. It's been over 150 years since the U.S. bought the southwest from Mexico after the war. It no longer matters if that war was right or wrong. Our current borders are the reality now just like the borders of every other country all over the world. We have a right and duty to (finally begin to) protect our sovereignty.

Mass immigrations that occurred in the distant past cannot be compared to the illegal immigration of today. Regardless of the immigration laws or lack of laws in our history, we no longer have the need for great numbers to settle our wide-open spaces. So the immigration of millions a year, whether legal or not, can no longer be accommodated today either in terms of space or resources.

History has already proven that amnesty only encourages higher rates of illegal immigration. And our government has proven time and again that they have neither the will nor the desire to secure our borders. So amnesty is not and will never be the answer.

The vast majority of illegals here today did not come here for the American dream. They did not turn their backs forever on their former country and pick up the American flag. They did not come to embrace our culture and make it better. They come for the money. They want to be left alone to work and many (according to V. Fox) plan to return "home" (operative word) in the future. These are not the kind of immigrants on whom we should ever consider bestowing legal status, let alone (heaven forbid) a path to citizenship.

Our state and local governments (translated: you and I as the funding taxpayers) are breaking under the weight of so many poor and uneducated millions. As "waterworld" said so well, we just can't accommodate them.

American business survived before the surge of illegals this past two decades (mostly the past 8-10 years). Once we were a country of innovation and progress, developing new ways of accomplishing our business needs. Now many businesses are reliant on slave labor. It's time for that to end.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 11:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well said Franks

Posted by HotModernMom on August 15, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

waterworld and franks -

Wonderful and accurate posts!!! You have renewed my belief that there are posts on this website from rational, intelligent people who see the big picture. I cannot add anything more to what you 2 wrote. Tell others the truth and be sure that you 2 vote! Great minds think alike!!!

Posted by GuideDog on August 15, 2008 at 1:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

After 22 years in DC, this "Johnny One Note" congressman - unable to influence even 1 of the 4 Presidents and 11 congresses to effectively solve the immigration problem - now chooses to put the blame for the negative results with which the people of California have to deal (because of his own ineffectiveness) on his own party's governor and the legislature by portraying them as liars!

Such a self-serving tactics are to be expected by politicians at election time, but this is a new low for Gallegly.

If this newspaper wished to show its fairness to both the governor and the legislature, it would offer each an immediate chance to respond to this five star, re-election year hypocrisy. What say?

Posted by Franko on August 15, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Waterworld-Very good posts and I agree with you. I am not a conservative, but I also think we are getting too much lip service from both sides and no action. I also see that if you are here illegally, a convicted felon serving time, or on any type of government aid, you are definitely getting special treatment as compared to the rest of the hard working folks in America.

Posted by FedUp on August 15, 2008 at 1:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

thanks ironwoman. I appreciate the support.

here is one for you guys.

take our men and woman out of the middle east, and put them on our borders, to do the real protection of our rights as citizens.
let the middle eastern people continue the wars that have lasted thousands of years, continue to battle it out on their own.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 15, 2008 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

waterworld: I jumped in on your posts so I'm not sure if you were addressing me but I haven't mentioned race once in my posts.

All lands that were seized by a more powerful group in my opinion were seized illegaly. My point is that Mexico did not WILLINGLY sell their land, it was forced upon them. Yes, Mexico has commited atrocities too; Are you suggesting that makes it okay for the U.S. to do the same?

Yes, I'm aware of the economic impact of us Americans CHOOSING to hire the cheapest labor we can find.

Anyway, we can argue all day over trival matters, but wouldn't it make more sense if we discussed what we agree on? I agree 100% with you on this:

"I personally would also support granting amnesty to 20 million illegal aliens who have come here since 1986 on one condition; That the US provide a clear plan to secure the borders (not lip service) so that we would never have to grant amnesty again. NOT because I don’t like Mexicans but because we simply cannot economically accommodate the current rate of illegal immigration.

I DO NOT agree with this: "I am also convinced that most conservatives share this opinion.?"

Unfortunately, too many people to your right, and to my left insist on taking a hard line and won't compromise.

So based on your above comment and in the spirit of cooperation: You give "me" amnesty, what do "you" want as proof that our borders are secure?

Posted by nelsonknows on August 15, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero, just how did the U.S. "steal" land from Mexico?
The U.S. obtained California, Arizona New Mexico etc. from Mexico by way of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which ended the Mexican-American War of 1846-1848.
This war was started in 1845 when Mexican troops crossed into the United States and attacked and killed American Citizens.
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo concluded that the U.S. pay Mexico $15 million to obtain the land ceded to the U.S. and the U.S. would pay $3.23 million in debts owed by Mexico.
Other land obtained by the U.S. for Mexico included the Gadsden Purchase of 1853 in which the U.S. paid $10 million.
How again exactly did the U.S. "steal" land from Mexico?
By your reasoning, if you bought a house, the former owners could just take it back at any time, right?

Posted by nelsonknows on August 15, 2008 at 2:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero, Should we have to return Alaska to Russia or the Confederate States to the Confederates, or the U.P. of Michigan to Canada, the Louisiana Purchase to France, Florida to the Spanish, or West Virgina to Virginia? How about returning the original Colonies to England?

Posted by Why on August 15, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not the first to say this but, has anyone noticed the recent rash of e-coli, salmonela,etc... out breaks. Hmmm they all came from mexico? and mexicans work in the fields? anyone know here e-coli and salmonela come from? you figure it out.

Posted by cadreamer on August 15, 2008 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than any other country in the world. In 2006, the number of immigrants totaled 37.5 million.
How is it our responsibility morally or financially to take on the responsibility of those coming to the U.S. illegally? Isn’t that the only question we should be asking ourselves?

Posted by nelsonknows on August 15, 2008 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro099, uh NO try reading the treaty. Mexico crossed over into the U.S. and attacked U.S. Citizens in 1845.
http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/ghtreaty/

Posted by franks on August 15, 2008 at 3:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro099 and bombero,

It just doesn't matter anymore how the U.S. got the southwest from Mexico. It's ancient history and must be accepted. Our borders are not going to change. Time to move on.

And though I agree with much of what "waterworld says," I don't agree that most conservatives accept amnesty for those who are already here illegally. I'm a moderate conservative, and so are most of my acquaintances. None of us consider any type of amnesty as acceptable. Not only have illegals broken our laws to come here but break even more laws to stay. Has your identity been stolen yet? As the fastest growing crime in the nation, it may be only a matter of time.

In the case of our energy crisis, no we can't just drill our way out. We must embrace all forms of energy whether popular with environmentalists or not as well as develop new renewable sources. The same is true in dealing with illegal immigration. The border fence alone will not solve the problem. But adding strict workplace enforcement (deporting illegals and prosecuting employers), untying the hands of local law enforcement in day-to-day duties, requiring ID for voting, denying all benefits accept those (sometimes very foolishly) mandated by law, tracking visit visas with warrants issued for overstays, and making English our official language will eventually slow illegal immigration to a number with which we can hopefully deal. Then we look at overhauling our TEN existing guest-worker programs to supply the necessary skilled and unskilled workforce and enforce their usage. That is my idea of “comprehensive” reform.

Posted by HotModernMom on August 15, 2008 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If it rrrrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaaaalllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyy still matters to the few out there that for whatever reason hate America and all its prosperity,

Mexican troops, unprovoked did cross into the U.S. and kill U.S. citizens. A war began. The U.S. won. Instead of just conquering as EVERYONE else did throughout history and taking the lands, the U.S. PAID, YES PAID for the land and helped Mexico, a financial strapped country, pay off debts.

Sounds pretty darn generous for the winner of a war that was started by the loser.

If California was still part of Mexico, then Mexicans would illegally be crossing into Oregon to find work! At least the purchased lands have been prosperous for its citizens, unlike Mexico which to this day is still ruled by a crooked government.

Instead of blaming America, let's blame Mexico, which is the source of this problem and how poorly it treats its citizens.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 4:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks

You and I fundamentally agree. I like you was very ardent in my stance on returning the 20 million illegal immigrants here now. I have come to realize that it would be a monumental task the find them and deport them, and the legal battles that would follow. It would cost billions and billions of dollars to accomplish it when our State and Federal Government are not on sound economic footing. Do I like the idea of amnesty absolutely not! If however we secured our borders (both north and south) and put a stop to further illegal incursions. Demonstrate for a period of say 2 years that incursions have been halted I believe I would trade that for one more last amnesty. I am afraid if we are not willing to support some type of a deal we will never secure the borders ever. If that happens at the current rate of illegal immigration, in 20 years it won’t matter because we will have already been reduced to a third world country.

There is a difference between what we would like and what is realistic. I am simply being a realist here.

And for those of you who think our uniformed soldiers should be placed on our borders, you’re not being realistic. If you want that you will have to change our Constitution as it forbids such a thing. Or the President would have to declare the illegal immigration an invasion, invoke the War Powers Act and then it could be done. Personally I won’t be holding my breath for either.

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Citizen
You are right as is Franks it’s a done deal. The borders are what they are. America is not perfect but it is still the best place in the world to be. AND if you don’t choose to believe that why aren’t you illegally crossing the border of some other country?

Posted by LivinInPoorMansPV on August 15, 2008 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bombero42

Give it up. There are more LEGAL MEXICANS that are outraged about the illegals than anything! They went to school and worked hard for there LEGAL STATUS and ARE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

This is AMERICA YOU KNOW!

Posted by franks on August 15, 2008 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Waterworld,

While I admit there may be necessity for some limited compromise on the illegals already here, I will never accept the mass amnesty as it is currently presented. If it were somehow possible (by our government, ugh!) to eliminate from eligibility for legal status anyone who has used stolen or fraudulent identities or broken any other laws, you might find those like me willing to budge a little from our anti-amnesty positions. Of course, that would require eligible illegals to produce (certified) birth certificates from their birth countries (yeah, that'll happen) proving their identity and proof of employment in that SAME NAME for maybe 5 years. Impossible to process, you say? But it would be possible to process 20 million people through a wide-open amnesty program??? That, too, would be chaos.

And, of course, those illegals granted legal status after entering the country illegally may never become citizens so they can never vote. Sorry. On that issue I will never compromise.

Complete capitulation on amnesty will never happen by those of us opposed to this anarchy. And since our esteemed congressmen refuse to discuss identity theft as an unpardonable criminal act (or even that it IS a criminal act) by illegals, I doubt much will happen. We already know what happens after a mass amnesty. Let’s try to learn a little from our own history.

By the way, I don’t consider the finding and deporting of illegals necessary. If you take away all the benefits to be here (and cut off funding to sanctuary city/states), many illegals and their families will leave. Not enough? It would be interesting to find out how many, wouldn’t it?

Posted by waterworld on August 15, 2008 at 8:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks

Perhaps your right. One thing is for certain we have to close the borders befor any kind of comprimise can be discussed.

Glad to know I'm not alone

Posted by bombero42 on August 15, 2008 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Living poor, yes, there are about 30% of the Mexican American population who think like you do about illegal immigrants. But not all or even most of that 30% are people who came here legally and earned citizenship. Lot of them were born here and were citizens through luck, not hard work.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 15, 2008 at 9:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Has your identity been stolen yet? As the fastest growing crime in the nation, it may be only a matter of time."

And the illegals are to blame for that Franks? Wow, not only are they working the fields, restaurants, and our yards, but now they're computer wizards hacking into credit card companies' databases.

Do you have any inkling how ridiculous it is to blame those who crossed illegaly for EVERYTHING?

Posted by bombero42 on August 15, 2008 at 9:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nelson, as usual, you and others here are ignorant of history. Mexico did not invade us we invaded them. President Polk deliberately sent troops into disputed territory with the purpose of provoking a war. When Polk claimed that Mexican soldiers had spilled American blood on American soil, Senator Abraham Lincoln said he was lying and introduced the "Spot" resolution challenging Polk to prove his claim.
http://www.archives.gov/education/les...
As for those who can't read, or who read things into what I post due to their own prejudices, I never said anywhere that we should give the land back to Mexico. I just want the truth acknowledgee.
And the fact that we paid for something that wasn't for sale does not change the fact that we stole it and then paid for it at the point of a gun.
The real reason for the war was to bring another slave state into the union. So much for glory and patriotism.

Posted by franks on August 15, 2008 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"And the illegals are to blame for that Franks? Wow, not only are they working the fields, restaurants, and our yards, but now they're computer wizards hacking into credit card companies' databases.

Do you have any inkling how ridiculous it is to blame those who crossed illegally for EVERYTHING?"

Computer wizards? Hardly. But they learn how and where to buy false or stolen identities, as you well know. And they're not working in my yard.

No, I don't blame them for EVERYTHING. That would be stupid. But they are responsible for their own crimes (identity theft is a crime whether you like it or not) and draining overwhelmed education and social services systems and I do blame them for that. And illegals commit many serious crimes. Sure, maybe not any more than other groups. But a serious crime committed by an illegal is worse for the victim because it wouldn't have happened in the first place if the illegal wasn't here in the country.

No, they are not responsible for global warming, Iraq, or the incompetent candidates running for president. I only blame them for the problems they create, which are legion. What is ridiculous is to deny the terrible impact of massive illegal immigration on the average American worker, student, and taxpayer.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 15, 2008 at 11:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks,

You can't have it both ways. You're part of the American culture that has and continues to demand cheap labor. They ARE working in your backyard, the U.S.A.

You say you're generally against amnesty but what you really mean is you're against amnesty for those committing the illegal act of being here without proper documentation. You seem to overlook the illegal act that we as a Nation commit by hiring them. As a group you want to send all illegals back for their crimes? If you're serious about no amnesty what punishment should we as a Nation face for our crimes?

Again, this is not an individual issue or crime. When it comes to illegal immigration we've commited just as many crimes. Why should the bulk of the burden to find a solution fall on them?

And it is ridiculous to associate them to identity theft. You know as well as I do that the identity theft everyone is worried about is the kind used to steal money and make purchases under someone else's name. As you yourself described, the illegals are getting forged documents to try and get a job. Most of the time those bad documents do not have valid SSNs or the SSN does not match the true owners name. Fake documents yes, identity theft, hardly.

Posted by UCSBguy on August 16, 2008 at 12:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro099 are you really that clueless? Maybe you're an illegal immigrant yourself but that's fine. You don't have to be a computer wizard to steal identities. Many of them just commit vehicle and residential burglaries and steal credit cards. I don't understand why you have to hack a computer in order to steal information.

I'm not saying all people who commit burglaries are illegal immigrants but it's probably safe to say that %50+ are illegals.

Also you said, "Wow, not only are they working the fields, restaurants, and our yards" So you ADMIT that you hire illegal aliens to do your yard? Is that why you're so defensive of this because you're too lazy to get your fat butt to mow the lawn? I see now.

People, Jamaro enslaves his own people. Now that's just wrong.

Posted by franks on August 16, 2008 at 1:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro,

It’s difficult to swallow that you actually believe what you write. The crime of hiring illegals is committed by businesses. And that crime ultimately hurts Americans! Yes, our government is complicit in this by their inaction. But you cannot lay blame for illegal immigration on the American people.

I'll make it very simple for you. I don't care why illegals steal identities. They are here without our permission and they cost us dearly. It doesn’t matter what they pay in federal taxes because the costs of illegal immigrants is shouldered by local and state taxpayers. Our state is sinking under the weight of millions of poor illegals that must be educated and cared for by law. (By the way, are those some of the crimes to which you refer?)

I don't demand cheap labor. I'll gladly pay more for my tomatoes (studies say the cost could increase by $.10 per pound without illegal labor!!) That's a bargain compared to the cost of education and healthcare for 20 million people, not to mention social services and law enforcement. Geez.

Your assertions are incomprehensible. You need to admit to yourself that your personal agenda overrides thought and reason. Actually, I wonder at your agenda. Would you feel more comfortable in a lawless nation or is it a Hispanic nation you crave? You clearly don’t like America as it is.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 16, 2008 at 6:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Actually franks, it you who doesn't like America as it is.

I've served my country during wartime, gone door to door in support of my political convictions among other things.

Franks, with people like you it's always someone elses fault; Not me, big business. Not me government. Not me the illegals.

My agenda is to create a fair and humane solution to the illegal immigration problem. When you make statements like "On that issue I will never compromise", YOU need to admit to yourself your personal agenda.

Once again, if they are here without your permission then why did you hire them? Oh that's right it's not you its.....nevermind.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 16, 2008 at 6:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

UCSBguy,

sigh. The VAST majority of identity theft is not committed by illegal alians.

You see, people like franks use the tactic of finding a vauge connection between a problem(identity theft) and a group of people(illegal aliens) and attempt to make it seem like they are to blame.

Deport all illegal immigrants and identity theft will be just as big a problem as it is today. It is ridiculous to insinuate illegals are a big part of the crime of identity theft.

Beside, why would they break into cars to steal when they can get everything they need from the government? Have you ever stopped to consider if it is even possible for illegals to be doing all the things you blame them for?

Posted by Rocket81 on August 16, 2008 at 7:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The problem is that the "illegal" immigrants culture dictates to have many children. When one does not make the amount of money to support their family, the burden is passed on to the "tax payer". This is large part is due to the "immigrants" having low paying jobs. They are overcrowding everything and show no respect to American culture or the flag. I saw this first hand at the VC Fair Rodeo. Bottom line is you are illegal, you should be outta here.

Posted by franks on August 16, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro,

Your denial is profound and, sadly, permanent. Your humane solution to the illegal immigration problem is a blanket amnesty for every illegal regardless of their criminal activities. That is great for the illegals. Not great for the rest of us. Your "solution" will encourage many tens of millions more to continue the tradition of illegal entry because they assume we will once again reward their actions with amnesty. Why would they think otherwise? What chaos you would bring down on us. But that big-picture concept is obviously too complex. What each of us does should have consequences. You, me, and the illegals. Rewarding bad behavior doesn't work in the family dynamic, and shouldn't work in society. Oh yeah, I forget. The illegals are innocent. It is WE who are guilty.

Posted by CAtruckdriver on August 16, 2008 at 12:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm sorry if this offends anyone but I dispise ANY illegal immigrants who sneak into the country I was born in and get free food, medical care & discounted places to live all the while I pay thru the AZZ! for everything I buy/need to live. I dont care what color or race they happen to be, I just want them gone!!! Do you see the same ratio's of american born people sneaking into Mexico/Canada to get the same treatment? NO! Yes we live in the finest country on the planet but unfortunately our govt. doesnt have the balls to say NO to immigration. That big wall their building, thats the whimpy way out of putting their foot down & saying NO to immigration. I drive the beat-up cracked freeways everyday & pay huge repair bills on my truck that could be easily avoided if the govt's would put their foot down on immigration & spend MY tax dollars on the roads instead of the planes to fly all the immigrants back home. The whole "one world economy" is going to turn the U.S.A into a 3rd world looking place...

Posted by jamaro099 on August 16, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks, let me make your own blindness very clear.

You've talked about how governments are "...breaking under the weight of so many poor and uneducated millions."

You blame businesses when you say "The crime of hiring illegals is committed by businesses. "

And you deny the American people are complicit when you say "But you cannot lay blame for illegal immigration on the American people."

2. Government is run-by and appointed by the American people.

2. Businesses are run-by and patronized by the American people.

2. The American people account for 2/3 of the economic activity in this country.

2. As is evidenced by the scramble of American car companies to develop fuel efficient vehicles, business that want to stay in business will listen to the demands of the consumer, the American people.

So, put aaaalll those 2s together and what do you get? We the American people could've prevented the problems we're facing with illegal immigration. We all share in the responsibility.

Finally, you're so pre-occupied with making sure you parrot the party line accurately you don't know what to make of people who don't think EXACTLY like you. While I haven't done it on this particular thread, more than once on this site I've spelled out my solution and it is far from a mass amnesty. But again, because I'm not a lemming following the crowd blindly, you can't get it.

You claim you've never been part of the problem yet insist that only your solution will work(ahem, you're "will never compromise comments"). How ridiculous is that?

For the record:

1. Forget the wall - its a waste of money.
2. Those here since before 2000 can stay after registering.
3. Others have to go.
4. Severe punishment for people/businesses that hire illegals. I'm talking possibly closing the business regardless of its size.
5. Fair trade policies - For example; Sugar cane farmers in the U.S. are being unfairly being protected against foreign competition from South American countries. The U.S. is always pusing globalization and fair trade; Lets practice what we preach.

Nothing different from what I've posted in the past.

More importantly Franks, my solution involves compromise and matching goals with reality. Something you're clearly not capable of doing.

Posted by alisupinyun on August 16, 2008 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

why is it that everytime the budget deficit is at issue it is always blamed on the illegal population?? Why doesn't anyone talk about our overburdened welfare system?? Most people on welfare are american citizens. Most are able bodied individuals who choose to live off of free govenment money and housing assistance. Most are doing it fraudulantly. Welfare reform is not wroking because there is no reform. There are many ways around the requirements. These are the people that are draining our system the people who have medi-cal and will not think twice about using our emergency rooms for simple medical issues because they don't have to pay the $50 to $100 co-pays like most of us do.The ones who get housing assistance, free child care, free schooling,free medical care, food stamps. Why is money running out for social security payments but not welfare?? what is wroing with this picture??? These are the poeple who are draining our funds. Why doesn't anyone talk about those issues???

Posted by nelsonknows on August 17, 2008 at 1:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro099, apparently you are for amnesty, so how about amnesty for anyone who moved to California who possesses firearms that are legal in that state or how about amnesty for all gun owners against all of Commiefornia's Unconstitutional Firearms Laws, How about arresting Mayors and Council persons of Sanctuary Cities for violating Federal Law and obstruction of justice. Remember, U.S. Citizens ARE protected by the U.S. Constitution, as for illegal aliens, not so much.

Posted by franks on August 17, 2008 at 1:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

jamaro,

You'll be shocked to learn I agree with some of your ideas this time. In fact, it's the first post I've seen from you that contains some reason. Although I would never grant a path to citizenship to illegals, a conditional green-card for those who've been here since before 2000 (huh…I think I may get into the forged documents business!) AND who've not committed other crimes is a compromise with which I could live. I disagree about the fence though. I believe border and port security, along with the tracking of visitors who don't leave, go hand in hand with all other immigration enforcement tools (including prosecution of employers). Our borders are wide open. The fence is a necessary piece in shutting down illegal immigration.

It's still ridiculous, though, to blame Americans for illegal immigration when they are so victimized by the practice. How many would choose cheaper salads over the backbreaking costs of educating and caring for millions of poor. Not many, I'd guess. Sure we send the same bozos to congress over and over, regardless of their corruption or ineffectiveness. Who can explain why we do it. But to demonize us as accomplices in illegal immigration is absurd. It's simply a case of voters just not paying enough attention. You see that as evil somehow. I don't. I see it as human nature.

And when you blame the American people for the actions of their government, don't forget that the same would then have to be said of Mexicans et al and their never-ending stream of corrupt governments. So with your reasoning, illegals have made their own problems.

BTW, I'm curious about your "party line" statement. What party line would that be? The party of John McCain or Barak Obama?

A side note about amnesty: Illegal immigrants break into our country like a burglar breaks into your house. Would you then reward them by offering amnesty to the illegal and your TV to the burglar? That is, after all, what each is after.

Posted by ecarson1958 on August 17, 2008 at 8:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I hope that my letter will be read. What's the saying, save the best for last? Here goes:

The nuts and bolts regarding a border fence being built comes down to one thing, MONEY. Just imagine the cost given the job would be facilitated by the Federal Government. Before any work could start, Congress would need to sign a Bill Into Law authorizing the appropriation of "said money." Before you know it another Branch of the Government would be enacted. It would fall in between Homeland Security and the INS(immigration and naturalization service). The Immigration and Border Control Agency would sound perfect. That sure seems like an awful lot of Bureaucracy just to build a fence. Imagine the expense! I'm guessing like A Million Dollars a Mile. HOW ABOUT A SOLUTION TO THE MESS!!!

California has too many inmates sitting around and looking at each other. If only they hadn't been pulled over for a faulty tail light the Cop wouldn't have found the personal stash of Drugs. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that every single non-violent inmate would love nothing better than "Camping" out in tents in a relatively controlled environment, ( like where would they escape to, Mexico?) They could do a six month tour of duty fence building, leave from the confines of the Prison and help America reclaim it's Borders. And here's the best part!! The Federal Government can pay for the inmates incarceration during the time when they're doing Their Tour of Fence Building. As it stands right now Sheriff Joe Arpillo in Arizona has an entire Jail System living in Tents in the Desert. He would have to be considered an expert in this area.

THIS IS A WINNING COMBINATION for all. The Nation will have a fence along it's Borders. The expense would be much less for the Federal Government paying the cost to warehouse inmates in the Desert versus their Prison Cells. California would have some of the money that goes to paying for the inmates re-reimbursed. And more importantly, the Inmates will be earning money, .65 cents an hour, and build their self esteem. But the best part is getting out of their Prisons for a few months at a time. Any readers left agree with me?

Posted by franks on August 17, 2008 at 11:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ecarson1958,

Not a bad idea. I'd make it a voluntary program, though, for eligible inmates only (non-violent, etc.), and pay minimum wage. The motivation to have a real nest egg saved up for after release might lead to real rehabilitation AND provide a better built fence constructed with some degree of pride. Too bad our government officials will never consider it. Much easier (and more lucrative to the officials) to hire an overpriced company to build a second-rate fence. Boeing Co., anyone?

Posted by faybie on August 17, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Shoot them when they cross the border, just like border guards in many countries around the world.
Jail American "coyotes" and throw away the key. This is nothing more than human trafficking and it needs to end!
Use armed drones to patrol the border, since Immigration and Customs Enforcement can't do its job.
Add immigration enforcement officers and phone representatives. Even after 2 1/2 hours on hold, I still hadn't spoken to a human being.
Train local law enforcement how to spot illegal papers and work permits so they can enforce the law. I spoke with a Ventura County deputy sheriff who told me all the day laborers hanging out on street corners in my area had "legitimate work permits". If he had any idea just how hard it is to get one of those "legal" work permits, he'd see that realistically and drag those people to jail so they could be deported.
We must demand that the Central American countries cooperate and take their criminals back, and treat them harshly. Right now, they're glad to be rid of them.
The fire departments all over California need to be enforcing occupancy violations. Here in Ojai, these illegal "immigrants" (call it like it is; they are ILLEGAL ALIENS)live 30 to a garage, with 5-gallon cans serving as toilets, and they leave them in alleys. Do I see cholera and typhus returning? It's only a matter of time.
Interagency cooperation is essential. Right now, it's nothing more than an ineffective mess.
Having worked at The LA County General Hospital (LAC+USC Medical Center), I've seen first-hand the abuse of the system. Over 80% of my patients were illegal hispanics. Beds are taken up by gang-bangers who will never recover beyond the point of a persistent vegetative state and cannot be placed in nursing home because they are ineligible for Medi-Cal. In a 1000-bed hospital, at least 75 beds are taken by these people who were nothing more than common criminals. That's 7.5% who cost the county/state over $1000 PER DAY, PER PATIENT. You can't tell me that $75,000 every day is a fair burden on the taxpayers; it's not to me, I'll tell you that. Do the math.
I am normally a far left liberal, but this chaps my hide.

Posted by franks on August 17, 2008 at 12:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

faybie,

It will be interesting to see responses to your real-world-experience post by pro-illegal alien supporters (not likely). While I prefer a non-violent end to this chaos, much of what you've seen and shared is outrageous and very unfair to taxpayers. Clearly the tide must be turned.

Posted by writer on August 17, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I just feel that if you are going to move you and your family to another country, (wherever that may be) you should at least TRY to assimilate. I feel that this is where most of the problems and tension between American citizens and undocumented citizens stems from. There is no other country in the world, besides the U.S., that you could move to where it would be acceptable to not conform at all. There are huge cultural differences between people from all countries, and that is a wonderful thing. It becomes a problem when people move into countries that are not of their origin and do not try to fit in. And if it is SO bad in the U.S. for immigrants then why stay???? That would be like an American citizen moving to Japan and demanding that everything change to be set up as if they were still in the U.S., and then when it doesn't happen and people are looking at me crazy, talking trash about the country and its citizens.

Posted by bombero42 on August 17, 2008 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey Faybie, so you want us to be like the most repressive regimes in the world? Some American you are. Do you want us to shoot the women and children as they cross also? You could get your jollies watching tapes of the kids exploding when they are hit by the rounds.
This is the kind of irrational hatred that is caused by the constant scapgoating of illegal aliens.

Posted by bombero42 on August 17, 2008 at 7:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No Ventura born, lots of other countries have illegal alien problems when the people don't easlily conform.
Those who are legal here do try to fit in though, it just takes time, just like it took time when the waves of Jewish and Italians came here 100 years ago.
You get a warped view because you do not see the people who conform and move up the ladder.
New people come and take their place and you think you are looking at the same people.

Posted by writer on August 17, 2008 at 10:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bombero: I do not understand why you have to be so rude and disrespectful. You are really proving the point of those that you disagree with.

Posted by Rocket81 on August 17, 2008 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A plea to all elected officials. Save our dying country. Get ALL the illegals out. Stop ALL immigration now!

Posted by writer on August 18, 2008 at 1:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Bombero: I do not understand why you have to be so rude and disrespectful. You are really proving the point of those that you disagree with.

Posted by bombero42 on August 18, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ventura, please explain what in my reply to you was rude and disrespectful??

Posted by cason on August 18, 2008 at 9:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay, here it is,

It is not the states problem necessarily. Our brothers and sisters continue to hire illegals. You can not blame a person for looking for work. But you can blame a person for hiring less skilled, non-tax paying, illegal immigrants. We have to turn in everyone who is hiring them and take part in reporting illegals to la migra! It is our civic duty to be involved in removing and reducing the problem.

It is not about race, it is about survivability for those whom live here now!

Immigrations phone number is 1-800-375-5283. Please call and report.

Posted by jamaro099 on August 18, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Franks,

The reason I believe the fence is a waste of money is because I believe there are more effective ways to curb illegal immigration. I'm American born but as a kid I worked in the fields with my parents(both now American citizens btw). During those years most workers came from specific parts of Mexico(the poorer regions). We rarely saw people from Oaxaca over here. Today, Oaxacans are coming over in larger numbers. It will always be the poorest and least educated who will try to come over here. I believe our money should be spent on developing programs that will help people from wanting to leave in the first place.

My position is that we Americans are equally to blame, not solely to blame. Illegal immigrants, Mexican government and others share in the blame. Nobody would choose cheaper salads if they bothered to investigate the true costs. As you alluded to, the problem is that in our rush for immediate gratification we don't bother to read the fine print(just like with the mortgage mess). However, if you sold me a car and in the fine print you said the transmission didn't work, would you give me a refund because I didn't bother to read it? Likewise, illegal immigrants shouldn't bear all the burden of a fix because we didn't consider the true cost of hiring them.

YES, the Mexican government is extremely corrupt and the Mexican people need to step-up. Believe me, I'm not an apologist. I have Yes, illegals need to share in the responsibility of fixing the mess here in the U.S.

Actually, I pegged you more of a Ron Paul supporter. Believe it or not I think I would vote for him over Barak.

As far as your side note: Illegals broke in, and we gave them jobs. Not logical but that is what we did.

Thank you Franks for sharing. Once we put our passions aside it is nice to discuss our opinions and ideas and begin to recognize the things we have in common.

Posted by franks on August 18, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with you that the fence will be costly. I agree that there are other actions that will also help curb the influx of illegal aliens. I believe we should take ALL the steps necessary to halt illegal immigration and not building the fence as a piece of the solution is like not plugging all the holes in a sinking ship.

I also believe that every illegal is aware of their chances of deportation if caught and actually arrested (very little, in reality) and still make the choice to come anyway, to have children here, and to work here under someone else's name. The same can be said for employers, and I'd love to see a few of them very publicly land in jail. Again, there are and should be consequences for our actions.

I don't support either of the major candidates and assume I will have to continue to work hard against amnesty after the election. I may vote for Paul, but in California voting for anyone other than a Democrat is unfortunately a throw-away vote due to a misguided adherence to the Electoral College.

While we will continue to disagree on whom to lay the blame for illegal immigration, I do appreciate a return to civility in our posts.

Posted by adamantly on August 19, 2008 at 6:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Anyone who think illegal immigration is not damaging California and the US is deluding themselves.
Illegal immigrants DO NOT come here for work. In my travels it is clear there are jobs in all these countries. They come her for one reason, the benefits.
In Mexico you and you family have to live on the money you earn. In the US the illegals can earn money to buy beer, cell phones, cars etc while the taspayer is feeding, clothing etc the spouse, children and extended family.
In addition there have been many posts about the illegals paying into the system. Well that not true. Even with false ss#'s they don't make enough money to pay into the system.
Every facet of life in California is adversely affected by illegal immigration.
One quick look at Europe is confirmation. Any highly productiveand efficient community attract those who wish to benefit from the work of others. California will go bankrupt if the illegal immigration issue is not solved. Taxpayers will eventually leave and the situation will spiral out of control.
California is in desperate trouble. Only the liberals believe that illegal immigration is not a problem but anyone who looks at schools. hospitals, law enforcement etc can clearly see what needs to happen.
It never will change, but that doesn't mean it isn't the problem.

Posted by mypov on August 19, 2008 at 1:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have no problem with illegal immigrants. Because in all honesty Me and You aren't gonna go due the jobs that they do? Be for real? And everyone has a right to earn a living. BUT I have a problem with how easy the government makes it. WELFARE,WIC,MEDI-CAL, PRESCHOOL!! all these programs are free if you are illegal. What about those of us that ARE legal? The government doesnt help us. Im not saying take all the programs away but what about partial costs. the government is plain stupid

Posted by Rocket81 on August 19, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Priority one should be gathering up ALL illegal immigrants and get them out of here. Our government has let all legal citizens down year after year and now look how the quality of life is going down as well.

Posted by ValerinaS on August 19, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

All the arguing on here is insane. What, if you don't support illegal immigrants (who according to these comments are automatically mexican or of hispanic origin) you're racist and right wing? I don't think so. It means you care about the LAWS being inforced. These are LAWS. If you are here ILLEGALLY, you are BREAKING THE LAW! I don't care whether you are illegal living on the beach in Ventura, the hood in Oxnard, wherever, the fact remains that you're ILLEGAL. I understand that there are illegals that pay taxes they never get back, but that doesn't make it okay to be here. It's still agaisnt the law. And the ones who ARE taking advantage of our welfare system, education grants, etc., are taking money out of my LEGAL son and daughter's mouth, who were unable to attend SUMMER SCHOOL because CALIFORNIA IS BROKE!!! You can't turn your head on the problem and accuse people addressing it of being racial. It's absurd.

Posted by alex.poet on August 19, 2008 at 4:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If we get rid of the immigrants, who will pick my strawberries? Will one of you local Oxnard people do it?

Posted by WittyUserName on August 20, 2008 at 12:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow...this is still a hot topic! I agree with the 'racists'. 'Illegal' is the operative word. Really, for the sympathizers: Do you really think that anyone should be allowed in and have the right to services? Everyone? I'm not going to pretend I know the exact numbers but I think there will still be enough LEGAL immigrants left to do the jobs that no one wants if the law is ever enforced.

Posted by levotb on October 3, 2008 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Fedup,

Your reasoning is idiotic. Gallegly is WAY off on his figures. He should have had the insight to check out the most recent, comprehensive study of "numbers" of illegal aliens in the U.S. and that would be the 10/07 CAPS Study Panel at

http://www.capsweb.org/content.php?id...

I know one of the panel experts. I'd trust him with my life. He's a Democrat, but is conservative on ONE issue--the Invasion. That report found that between 20 and 38 million illegals were here in the U.S. We know for a fact that between 5,000 and 10,000 illegals break into the U.S. every 24 hours. Can you believe it? It's true. Anyway, that study is a year old, now, and 1.5-3 million more illegals later. Some are estimating the actual figure to be 40 to 50 million. Now, it is common knowledge among experts on this issue that CA holds about half of all illegals in the U.S.