Posted by captainbob on April 20, 2008 at 12:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If Brandon is tried in Juvenile Court, then all gang members under 18 should be tried in Juvenile Court. Justice should be applied equally, regardless of race or social status.

I am sure that if the shooter had been a gang member, the whole town would be begging for a public hanging.

Posted by bill0 on April 20, 2008 at 4:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

WoW Capt. Bob, I completely concur.

Whenever you see the stories about kids tagging, bloggers not only want to lynch the kids but their parents too! I think in this case they are going to change their mind and feel sympathy for the kid and would want to try him as a juvenile. Just like you, I'm all for him to be tried as a juvenile but lets not be hypocrits and pick and choose the kids who are considered "juvenile"

Posted by Face on April 20, 2008 at 7:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think a clearer picture is starting to develop? What we have here is a larger older boy who dressed as a woman and was making public advances on the accused in front of his peers? This is not a hate crime, but some kind of revenge or honor-keeping killing. The school district had a dress code, dress codes have been held up as Constitutional all over the country. I cannot find one instance where a school dress code was invalidated for Constitutional reasons. And this is after the best judges and appellate courts have done their duty. (E.O. Green's dress code, which spells out requirements like navy pants and no steel-toed shoes, excludes "any clothing or hairstyle that distracts other students."). First, the Superintendent says, "the school did not allow the dress code to be violated." Really??? Then goes on to say, "schools have to abide by laws that state children don't leave their constitutional rights outside of school." And what laws are these that the Superintendent is talking about Exactly?? Two things this school did not do: 1. Enforce their OWN dress policy 2. Allowed a student to enter the campus with a handgun. The Superintendent tries to say that the dress code was never violated, but that flies in the face of the actual code. Well I say, if the code was not violated, why do we need the statement about making sure kids do not leave their "Constitutional" rights at the door?? What this indicates to me is that the district/Superintendent made a willful decision based on their own interpretation of "Constitutional Rights" to allow a particular student (not all mind you) to violate their own mandated codes and policies. This willful decision to abandon their own code seems to have to some degree attributed to the situation, and they are therefor culpable. My Post is not about trivializing the crime that has occurred or to discuss the ins and outs of any lifestyle, or to the damage to the local community. But I believe the Superintendent should step down immediately and that the district should be held accountable for its willful disregard of its own codes that could have possibly prevented this from ever happening.

Posted by ironwoman on April 20, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses---

When a 14 year-old person takes a gun to school, shoots another student in the back of the head, let's not make excuses about it.

Because the school didn't prevent it, because Larry was dressing like a girl, because the KILLER didn't have a fully developed brain, are ALL excuses.

McInerney made a choice to kill another person. It wasn't like he was "there" when someone else did it or was defending himself. 14 year-olds know between "right" and "wrong". His parents should be the ones to blame for raising a monster.

Posted by Face on April 20, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Catlover, that is ridiculous to the extreme. Nobody doubts a crime has been committed. Nobody is making excuses, but nothing is so cut and dry. The juvenile brain is different than an adult's. They are narcissistic and their peers opinions of them are VERY important to them. Has everyone forgotten what it was like to be a kid?? To equate this crime to someone who kills for money or fun should be in itself some kind of criminal simpletonism. Yes a murder has taken place, but to not look at the circumstances... who here would be willing to hang a 14 year old child without looking at the circumstances? Hello??

Posted by Common_Sense on April 20, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Do an adult crime, and the worst of them all in at a school with 100's of kids forever affected, you loose your right to ever walk among us. There is more than one victim in this senario...there were the kids who saw it, kids who were friends with both Larry and Brandon and those kids/parents who now have to live with the daily fear their child may not come home. Ask yourself what you would want done if it was your child that was murdered. I doubt many of you against trying him as an adult would have this position then....atleast if you are honest with yourself.

I would guess that there is much more to the story than what has been put out. Seems the defense frequently likes to release their spin to get the public fired up about their position while the DA keeps quiet until court. I think we have probably only heard a part of what the whole story is. Even so, I hope the DA and his staff have the courage to continue on the right path...any way you look at it this story is tragic.

Posted by steveb36701 on April 20, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"Stripping a 14 boy of his inalienable right to experience embarrassment, scorn, scrutiny (both internally and externally), and reaching some sort of acceptance of the consequences of his actions denies him his universal right to seek contrition and forgiveness.

So,it's OK for this 14 year old boy to strip a 15 year old of his inalienable rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? No, what Brandon did is unconscionable, and, as I said in another post, a person's personality, values and morals are thoroughly developed by the age of seven. This was a premeditated, cold-blooded murder. Go to any elementary school and ask a group of 2nd graders whether this type of action is right. I would be willing to wager that not one would say yes, given the circumstances. This criminal should be tried as an adult as the people of California mandated, and put away for 25 to life. He will then have plenty of time to "seek contrition and forgiveness".

Posted by Face on April 20, 2008 at 11:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Answer this question fools, who among you wants to be the executioner of a child without taking into consideration the circumstances? Speak up, but speak clearly, don't beat around the bush. And Steveb, where are your sources that 7 year olds have fully developed brains and psyches? And where is it stated that a crime is more punishable because of the number of witnesses? Sick foolishness.

Posted by freethought on April 20, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow! What a strong debate we have going here. Quite interesting to see everyone's side and justification. My wife and I are even on opposite ends. She feels that a 14-year-old does not have a fully developed brain, and thus should not bear the brunt of responsibility - at least no on an adult level. My opinion is that, while Brandon may not yet be mature and able to make the right decisions for his best interest, to decide that death by gunshot was the only recourse to stop Larry's teasing and advances shows much more than a lack of reasoning ability - it seems to show a deep-pitted anger could have lead to the same thing or much worse down the line. If Brandon had simply beat the kid up for chastising him, I would have figured Larry had it coming. To resolve to kill the boy brings this matter to a whole different level of criminal intent.

On the still-deleloping brain subject: Study after study has shown that the average age of full maturity happens at approximately 25 years of age. Given those findings, are we to consider anyone under the age of 25 a juvenile and try them as such? I think most of you would be on the "No" side of that question.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

Posted by VOR on April 20, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Face 99, who is the fool. Seems to me you are if you think this was Larry's fault. To correct your first posting, Larry although older was almost a foot shorter then Brandon, so he wasn't the "Larger Older Boy". Fact is he had just turned 15 a few weeks before as well so was closer to 14 like Brandon being closer to 13.

I cannot understand this free pass that people want to give to Brandon. This was no accident, this was not a case of kids playing with guns and someone getting hurt accidentally. This was a case of pre-meditated murder. He thought about the murder days before, told his friends about the murder days before, had days to think about killing Larry and how to carry it out. If this is not a clear cut case of cold blooded murder then I don't know what is. This is what proposition 21 was written to cover.

I sure as hell don't want him or someone like him in school with my kids, and I hope that other kids will get a message that there are no free passes for the crimes they commit. This has to stop somewhere and I cannot see a clearer cut case of cold blooded murder where an adult sentence is more justified then this one.

As far as the LGBT groups wanting to show compassion, that is a crock if I have ever seen it. They are pusing their own agenda and working both sides of the debate. I got news for them, there is no hate crime statutes in the juvinile justice system, so they can't have it both ways. Perhaps if they didn't "counsel" Larry to be so free and open he would still be alive today. Apparently he was not open about his sexuality until the Ventura Rainbow people got their hooks into him.

I still want to know why Brandon's father is out on the streets trying to get people to sign petitions. It was his gun that Brandon used to kill Larry. Isn't there a state or federal law that states that guns must be secured by trigger locks and in a lock box environment if there is a minor person living in the house. Seems to me the father should be sitting next to his son in county jail right now thinking about his part in this execution. From what I heard, Brandon even had his choice of 2 guns, but he chose the smaller one so it would not be as obvious as he brought it into school. Sound like he was mature enough to understand that and make a choice.

Even 10 year olds know that killing is wrong, know that guns are dangerous, and know that if you shoot someone in the head they will die so a 13/14 year old knows this even more. Brandon was a Jr. Marine, I am sure they teach about respect for firearms and firearm safety there as well. No I am sorry, there is no free pass here. He did the adult crime so should be tried as an adult. His father should be tried also as he is also to blame for this mess.

Posted by freethought on April 20, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - Interesting scenario you've proposed. I'm sure that VC judicial system wouldn't go for it due to alck of both precedence and funding, but very interesting none-the-less.

Posted by freethought on April 20, 2008 at 12:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I meant "lack", not "alck". Sorry.

Posted by bluefairy on April 20, 2008 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"And, Quest said, nothing happened in the fewer than three weeks between his 14th birthday and the shooting that would have turned McInerney into an adult."

California voted that 14 was the age to charge as an adult. Because of that fact, McInerney turning 14 turned him into an "adult".

McInerney knew what he was going to do and knew what the outcome would be. Some reports even state that he had told other kids that day would be King's last day. You can't expect me to believe that McInerney had no clue what he was doing when he took the handgun to school, walked up behind King in a classroom and shot him in the HEAD, then ditched the gun and ran.

I don't care about the circumstances that led up to the killing. Fact is that he KILLED him. No way to rewind that. No one will be waking up and saying "what a horrible dream I had".

McInerney not only has screwed up the rest of his life but he has emotionally scarred the lives of the teacher and students in that classroom at the time of the shooting, along with the staff, students and parents of EO Green. He committed an extremely selfish act and it ended in a tragedy.

He may have come for a bad family but that is no excuse.

Posted by bluefairy on April 20, 2008 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

*should read "may have come from a bad family"

Posted by juandeveras on April 20, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Interesting that King, residing at Casa Pacifica, a facility for kids with serious problems which received in the neighborhood of $6000.00 per month to both care for and school this kid, was somehow allowed to attend pro-gay meetings some distance from Casa Pacifica [ he couldn't drive ], was allowed to attend school at E.O. Green [ who was Green's staff dealing with at Casa Pacifica - Casa Pacifica had a school for King - did E.O. Green just want the extra funds from the state ?]. Casa Pacifica has prominent members of the community on its board, including a collection of lawyers. Note that Casa Pacifica advertises on its web site that it cares for "abused, neglected and severely emotionally disturbed children and adolescents " in the Tricounty area.

Posted by B8R_N4MD on April 20, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If he is convicted in Juvenile Court he will serve only until he is 25 years old, and his file will be sealed. Only 11 years for murder! If he is convicted as an adult he will more than likely serve up to 50 years, that being served in a juvenile facility until he turns 18, still allowing him parole and the ability to live freely once his time has been served. His victim has been denied that right. The suspect decided he would be judge and jury and sentenced him to death.
I strongly believe 11 years is not enough punishment for premeditated murder, even for a 14 year old.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 20, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Juan...your entire post is inaccurate!!! Where do you get your information? The same place the star gets it's??? Casa Pacifica is an emergency shelter that houses abused and neglected children in three of the five cottages. The other two cottages are residential treatment facilities. Larry was in the shelter. Casa Pacifica has an NPS school you obviously have no clue about. Larry did not qualify for NPS!!! Get your facts straight. You don't even know the correct amount "6,000" nice guess but if you have the correct information, state the correct amount.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 20, 2008 at 2:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Non Public School

Posted by Face on April 20, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

VOR seems pretty articulate for someone who cannot read my posts. But VOR is correct, I would be a fool if I thought the victim was responsible for this crime. I agree with VOR that if the perpetrator obtained the gun from a careless adult, that they should be indicted immediately. I haven't read anywhere that it be suggested the perpetrator not be prosecuted, not sure what Free Pass means I guess? But really VOR, "I cannot see a clearer cut case of cold blooded murder where an adult sentence is more justified then this one." A little artistic license, or are you really that out of touch? Killing a person without provocation because of his color, or because he was behind on a drug payment, or because he has a red hat on would not be a greater crime VOR? And Bluefairy, "I don't care about the circumstances that led up to the killing." A real bunch of cosmopolitan sophisticates here. O.k. then, let's say you are all right and lets take 14 as the Rule vs. 7 as some fellow sophisticates have suggested and make that the age of Majority. 14 year olds should then certainly be able to purchase alcohol, drive vehicles, enter into binding legal contracts, vote, serve their country, and of course be tried as an adult for any criminal offenses. After all, if one can be tried and executed as an adult, shouldn't they be considered an adult and have those adult rights? I just want to know which of you sophisticates want to perform the execution of this child "I don't care about the circumstances that led up to the killing."? Who among you can bloody your hands without taking into account the circumstances and be able to meet their maker and explain? I would love to know which ones would consider themselves followers of Christ that is for sure.

Posted by steveb36701 on April 20, 2008 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Face99, to answer your question, I learned that fact while enrolled in graduate school, Cal lutheran University, taking a course in Adolescent Psychology. No one is saying that a 14 year old's brain is completely developed HOWEVER, by that age a person definitely has a sense of right and wrong and the morals and values to make the distinction, Some people are just making excuses for bad behavior which is one of the biggest problems in our school, and our society. The so-called experts are more concerned with the little darling's self esteem then whether they learn to function in the real world. Well, welcome to the real world, Brandon, and I hope you learn your lessons well. With any luck you will have 25 to life to reflect on your underdeveloped ability to distinguish the difference between right and wrong. You were definitely wrong and now you should pay the price.

Posted by Common_Sense on April 20, 2008 at 4:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Each and every one of you ask yourselves if, at 14 (or any age for that matter) you would have even though about bringing GUN to school and then use it to shoot another kid. 14 now folks that's eighth or ninth grade. I faced confrontations and embarrasing situations in school as most of you have. Heck, I remember getting in a fist fight with a guy when I was 15 (ninth grade) revolving around an issue where he was spreading false rumors about me. Was my reaction right? NO...but it is a FAR CRY from taking one of my dad's guns (we had a few) and shooting the dude. I am certain that had this situation occurred one year earlier, it would have been the same outcome....as SteveB has stated, your grasp of right and wrong develops long before you are fourteen especially when is surrounds shooting someone....Today, in my late 30's I am sure I would not have gotten in the fist fight like I did over 20 years ago but there is NO WAY my moral compass would have ever told me it was okay to do what Brandon did. NEVER. And so this brain development argument can go on and on...it ultimately gets back to my original post. He made an adult decision and thus should face an adult punishment. Larry is dead, not suffering from a black eye and bruised ego...and hundreds of kids/parents will be suffering from Brandon's disgusting decision for the rest of their lives. I notice not one of you critics has addressed what you would want done if it was your child. Probably because if you answer honestly your answer would not jive with your position.....

Posted by Tom_Johnston on April 20, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am uncomfortable with the concept of trying children, even teenagers, as adults. Many prior posts have discussed this.

I would have less trouble, if the subsequent incarceration was with individuals of similar age. Throwing a 14-16 year old in with 40-50 year old lifers poses issues.

In this indivisual case....wherever the shooter is tried, or sentenced and sent to, is more humane and just that what was done to young Mr. King.

What taints all of this is all the posturing and rhetoric, and grandstanding that is exemplified by these boards. This moves the issue beyond the commission of a most dreadful crime, to that of a political football.

I am sure the political implications of such a horrific crime are not lost on our County District Attorney.

Were it my son who was shot...or was the shooter you can be sure that my opinions would would reflect that relationship...as it should. I would never, in either circumstance, wish for this tragic incident to be just so much political fodder and cause for pontification by so many.

Nothing will be gained by Mr. McInerney's sentencing...whereever it is made.

There is much to be gained by how we improve our understandings of how young people mature and the challenges they face in that process.

Posted by VOR on April 20, 2008 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Face99
"I cannot see a clearer cut case of cold blooded murder where an adult sentence is more justified then this one." A little artistic license, or are you really that out of touch?

I don't think I am the one out of touch. This was not an accident, this was not an inadvertant shooting that took place during the commission of a crime. This was a pre-meditated case of murder which was thought out in advance and carried out with planning and forethought. While the taking of a life under any circumstance is awful, the malice and forethought that goes into 1st degree murder was all here. So if you don't try this case as an adult, I can't think of too many other situations that would warrant it either. One thing that I think everyone is forgetting. Just because Brandon can be tried as an adult, does not mean that he will necessarily be sentenced as one. So why tie the judges hands in sentencing? The truth will come out and the judge will make the proper determination as to how the sentence is carried out.

This is a pretty open and shut case I would think, with 22 witnesess. It really doesn't matter what happened beforehand. The fact is nothing was happening at the moment or even in the previous hours prior to Brandon murdering Larry. There was no need for self defense, no immediate cause, no imminent threat, it was an assasination. Are you that blind to the facts?

Posted by steveb36701 on April 20, 2008 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I would have less trouble, if the subsequent incarceration was with individuals of similar age. Throwing a 14-16 year old in with 40-50 year old lifers poses issues."

Tom, Even if he is tried as an adult and receives a sentence of, say, 25 to life, he will be incarcerated in a juvenile facility (CYA) until he is 18 (possibly 25) and then transferred to a state prison. The authorities DO NOT throw 14 year olds in with older hardened criminals.

Posted by freethought on April 20, 2008 at 6:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tom, I must diagree with some of what you are saying. You indicated that we need to understand the challenges young people face. You and I were both the same age as these kids. We went through much of the same stressors (well, at least I did). The difference is that we did not solve our problems with a gun. I don't know about you, but there was an accessible pistol in my home when I was that age. The point being that we already know what these kids face, because we've been there ourselves. I think you are making this more convoluted than it really is.

As for saying that nothing will be gained by Mr. McInerney's sentencing. Of course something will be gained - justice. That's whether he's tried as an adult or a juvenile. Would you have the DA just let him go scott free?

Posted by VOR on April 20, 2008 at 6:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tom_Johnston

A correction in case you misunderstand the term "Tried as an adult" It does not mean that a 14 year old will be tossed into a mainstream prison with adults. It means that if convicted, he will be sentenced to the California Youth Authority until a minimum age of 18 all the way up to 25. After that time he will remanded to a normal prison with people his age or older. If he is tried as a juvenile he will still go to the CYA with other people his own age, but can only remain there for until a maximum of 25 years old. At which time he will be released and his files sealed. As the others mention 11 years is a pretty short time for 1st degree murder. Hell you get more time then that for illegal dog fighting. It is up to the judge to determine the length of his sentence. If tried as a juvenile the judge cannot go longer then age 25. If tried as an adult he can go as long as he feels is required. I think a lot of people think that he would be tossed in with hardened old men in prison, when they hear tried as an adult, obviously this is not the case.

Posted by Face on April 20, 2008 at 7:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Is there a difference between simply seeing a cross -dresser and killing him for what he is, and killing him because he came on to you in front of your peers thus putting your juvenile sexuality in question in front of your juvenile friends? I think so, anyone else? The fact is, the mitigating circumstances must be taken into account when determining state of mind. The school district is partly to blame, and there need to be changes there like... Don't let kids bring guns on campus, and Do enforce your dress code on all students, and Do not allow open sexual harassment/advances. The last one is because I understand that the victim was fond of chasing boys on campus? I cannot imagine that that could have gone on unnoticed.
I cannot imagine what benefit there would be to try the perpetrator as an adult then sentence them as a juvenile? Is that supposed to be some kind of compromise? As far as 1st degree murder, I guess we will need to know more to say that for sure... as that goes to state of mind. If the perpetrator felt victimized or threatened, that could go to state of mind as well. There is no telling how someone will react when put in a Clockwork Orange type of situation.

Posted by bluefairy on April 20, 2008 at 8:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Face 99 - "14 year olds should then certainly be able to purchase alcohol, drive vehicles, enter into binding legal contracts, vote, serve their country"

Cold, calculated murder is on a completely different level of "adult" than any of what you mention, except for serving our country.

Posted by bluefairy on April 20, 2008 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

and another thing Face99, no I do not care about the circumstances. There is absolutely NO justification EVER when a human being's life is taken. Whether it's by a juvenile or an adult. If I were to take a gun and shoot someone in the head, I guess I can blame it on the fact that my mother abandoned me at the age of 2 and since I didn't have a mother's love I am incapable of loving and don't know right from wrong. Or maybe I can blame it on my father, who had to work 3 jobs as a single father and since I was raised by a nanny, I don't know right from wrong. Oh wait, I think I'll blame it on my drug using, abusive family who tells me that being different is very bad and if you don't look, talk, think or act like me then I must do something to you?

Again, NO, I do not care what the circumstances were that led to murder. Call me what you want, just be careful because I might blame someone else...

Posted by bluefairy on April 20, 2008 at 8:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I will, however, agree that changes need to be made at the school level. If a dress code is in effect, then it must be adhered to. I believe I read, in earlier reports, that the code doesn't specify if only females can wear makeup, jewelry etc. Well maybe a revision to the code is in order. Spell it out and enforce it. With the sudden awareness of school shootings, maybe it's time the State step in and demand every school have metal detectors, whether it be walk-thrus or wands. And I couldn't agree more with the putting a stop to sexual harassment - but that calls for educating everyone about everyone's differences and sadly, we're years away from that.

Posted by freethought on April 20, 2008 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Face99 - I do agree that more should have been done to curb Larry's behavior. It seemed plenty of students and teachers took notice of it. All that you mentioned that should not be allowed, of course, was not ever allowed. It simply wasn't reported when it happened (based on previous articles).

That being said, it does not matter that he did what he did. Brandon had plenty of other recourse to take besides the planning and execution of homicide. As I said earier, he could have beat Larry senseless, and most would have understood his actions (not that I condone fighting). To indicate that Brandon's juvenile sexuality being challenged was a reason for temporary insanity-led murder is tantamount to saying that the Columbine tragedy should be excused and forgiven. What Brandon did was horrifyingly wrong and should be punished. A judge will ultimately decide what that level of punishment shall be.

Posted by chiques on April 20, 2008 at 11:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What ever happened to the registered owner of the weapon this minor used?

Posted by newshound on April 21, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I suspect that the protection of the public should be the primary concern here. This minor has done a very adult act by taking the life of another human being in a brutal and cruel way. If juvenile court means that he will be out of prison at a very young age, he will have the means and ability to kill again.

Posted by freethought on April 21, 2008 at 7:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

We sound hateful? We're not the ones with posts full of exclamation marks.

Posted by freethought on April 21, 2008 at 7:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way, which 17-year old are you talking about? To what story are you referring?

Posted by Hueneme_girl29 on April 21, 2008 at 7:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

DO AN ADULT CRIME - DO ADULT TIME. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 21, 2008 at 7:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm glad to see the high level of involvement of the public in weighing in on this issue. I may be wrong, but there may be a reawakening of common sense in so far as how kids are being viewed in the justice system. There are a lot of valid points being made on both sides of this tragedy.
I do agree that even underage "gangbangers" do not necessarily belong in adult court all the time. However, there IS an important distinction to make. Anyone joining a gang is aware that regular violence may be required of him, and that just joining one means that an act of violence may be required to simply get in as an "initiation". I suspect that is one of the reasons a DA might be more aggressive in pursuing an adult venue. I've posted before that no one posting here has the full story as to what led to this shooting, though nothing excuses it.

As far as being fair as to race, I don't think white kids have any advantage at all here simply because any DA will be afraid of being called "racist" if he does NOT bring a white kid's case into adult court. White kids are much, much more likely to be charged with "hate crimes" and it's unlikely any white from a poorer background will have the political advocates or resources to "buy" him an advantage.

Though absolutely nothing justifies this shooting, I'm not sure Larry King was perfectly innocent in this either. Why did this school allow this situation to fester as long as it did? Of COURSE they deny any responsibility here, they always do. It seems to me they were far more concerned with their "commitment to diversity" than they were with any possible consequences. Since when are 11, 12, and 13 year olds ready to be exposed to issues like this in school? They should be concerned with learning, activities, sports and developing their social skills, not having the controversial issues of the day being pushed in their faces. If King was indeed taunting McInerney sexually, who the hell knows what might happen? Even allowing this boy to come to school dressed as a female should have been seen by any semi-competent administrator as being extremely provocative at the very least.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 21, 2008 at 8:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I keep reading here that McInerney knows the difference between right and wrong. I would hope so. But so do wives who shoot their husbands who have been suffering abuse from them and finally kill them. Is this an extreme analogy? Of course, but then again, they ARE adults, and often receive mercy at the hands of the justice system. A soldier who might kill a POW knows he is doing wrong, but he will still receive sympathy from much of the population because he was under stress from being attacked. Another extreme analogy? Sure, but again, he IS a fully grown man with professional training and surrounded by other grown men armed to the teeth who can also call down artillery fire and air strikes on their enemies.

I'm only using those analogies to make a point. Just what WAS going on here? Do kids possess the same emotional and psychological maturity as adults, who themselves can do things they would not normally do under certain conditions? I don't think anyone here is arguing for no punishment, but 50 years in prison? I don't know. This shooting didn't happen in a vacuum. McInerney didn't just, out of the blue, decide he just wanted to kill somebody and picked Larry King. I do think something else was going on here.

Let's face it - even adults who commit serious crimes are often given a break because of genuine mitigating factors in a crime. Also, none of us would dream of allowing a 14 year old to have consensual sex with the neighbor across the street, for obvious reasons. He simply isn't mature enough to make that kind of decision. Then why is he considered "mature" enough to be held to adult standards of accountability in a crime? When did he all of a sudden "become" an adult? It surely must be possible for this kid (and plenty of others) to be punished severely enough in the juvenile system. Why can't they be incarcerated for longer than 11 years?

14 year old kids do not reason along the same lines as adults. In the Texas polygamy case, authorites are claiming that even if 16 year old girls are giving their consent to be married, it still qualifies as abuse and a crime is being committed because they are too young, still minors, to be engaging in activity like this. Then why is it that if they are charged with a serious crime they all of a sudden assume all the reasoning powers of adults and can be held to those higher standards? Again, I don't think anyone here has advocated this kid not being punished, but there must be a better way to handle these kids than throwing all of them away. None of us knows the full story here, but even if McInerney's case ends up in adult court, which will probably happen due to political pressure to do so, a jury might well find for manslaughter or even insanity. I don't know.

Besides, who wants to be footing the bill when these kids are all elderly and we're paying for their Depends and false teeth?

Posted by 805grl on April 21, 2008 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I want to agree with the first comment from capatin bob...
But I also think if it were a hispanic or black gangbanger everyone would agree to send him away for life!! i doubt there would be issues about his age!! Because its a white kid, everyone wants to save him..

Posted by freethought on April 21, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - Although I don't agree with your view on this article, that last comment was funny.

Posted by mal1910 on April 21, 2008 at 9:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe that one of the biggest problems with our society is that no one is willing to take responsiblity for their actions. This applies to school administrators, parents, kids, EVERYONE. Stop pointing fingers and man-up to what you do.

Posted by freethought on April 21, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Varacious - Thanks for clarifying.

Posted by freethought on April 21, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I meant "Veracious"

Posted by shaver_one on April 21, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's a novel idea.
Let Larry King's father decide whether Brandon McInerney should be tried as an adult, or a junvenile. It was, afterall, his son that was shot in the back of the head, in an act of premeditated murder.

Posted by Face on April 21, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Really Bluefairy? What if you had been raped or beaten and intimidated? That should not be taken into account at all? Interesting viewpoint, so black and white.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 21, 2008 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think 805grl is wrong here. There are plenty of white gangbangers out there, too. The fact he is white actually makes it easier to try him as an adult. Look at the "Jena 6" incident. All that was necessary for these kids to be kept in the juvenile system was for Sharpton to start screaming about it.

malf510 Kids ARE being held responsible for their actions. if anyone cares to check the sentences being handed down across the country these days. Sometimes I think they are the only ones being held responsible. In this case, the "adults" in that school apparently want to pretend that this all came from munchkin land and they couldn't do a thing about what was happening here which was crap. As usual, the only time folks wake up is after an incident like this happens.

shaver, this is why we have a justice system, so everybody won't be taking matters into their own hands. If we did, there would be a lot more corpses around, with idiots eventually doing each other in for all kinds of reasons, like Ned Flanders finally killing Homer for stealing his lawn mower. Oh diddly!

Posted by Face on April 21, 2008 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

805grl, you need to understand that racism is not involved here. The fact you think that way shows we have a long way to go to get rid of racism in this country. I guess you were brought up in the old days, come on and join us in the 21st century!

Posted by LUKY1 on April 21, 2008 at 11:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think that a lot of you are just making excuses for this kid because of his age. If this was your child that got shot at point blank in back of the head would you people still feel the same way?
@#$% no you wont !!!!
you would want the worst punishment to be laid on the person who did it.
Honestly people, instead of trying to help this
kid out you should try educating your own kids that
all people are not alike and to learn to accept each other regardless of how the other person talks,dresses or looks.

Posted by carvergrid on April 21, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a female, I just want to make a comment to people like Face99 who seem to be (not entirely, but somewhat) sympathetic to Brandon feeling "harassed" because Larry was "coming on to him." If sexual harassment on that level were even the tiniest bit of justification for a violent response, most people who grew up female would have killed about 20 people by now, and gotten in about 250 fights! Every time I passed a construction site I'd have to go off...

Just something to think about - most girls have to put up with heterosexual harassment on a daily basis, and while it's not condoned, it definitely isn't seen as a big deal like it is when a boy harasses another boy.

Posted by robert_s_hunter on April 21, 2008 at 12:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Very, very well put "aerodc8". I couldn't agree more...

Posted by 805grl on April 21, 2008 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Face99
I was raised in the twenty first century and I know there is racism out there!!
Ive experienced it first hand so dont tell me that has nothing to do with this, it plays a part!
If the shooter were a minority things would be easy, more would agree to send him away for life! Ive said all along, he needs to pay for what he did, try him as an adult!
Pogmothoin, Im sorry you cant "save the kid", he's already gone!!

Posted by Face on April 21, 2008 at 12:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

State of mind Carvergrid, state of mind. A woman being harassed is one thing, but a juvenile male being harassed by a transvestite in from of their juvenile male peers is quite another. And who is to say how detailed or continuous this harassment was? There could be a lot coming out in trial to go to state of mind. Don't compare normal sexual harassment to Clockwork Orange please.

Posted by Face on April 21, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That is a huge lie 805grl, straight out. Where did you learn to be so racist? If you were right, there would be no chance a black man or a woman could ever be president. You need to open a history book and see what racism is. I was once turned down for a loan.. i guess it was because of my race right? Nope, my credit score wasn't good enough.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 21, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's a novel idea.
Let Larry King's father decide whether Brandon McInerney should be tried as an adult, or a junvenile. It was, afterall, his son that was shot in the back of the head, in an act of premeditated murder.

HAHAHAHA-Shaver you crack me up.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 21, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I haven't seen ANYONE here "making excuses" because of this kid's age. Now, for those who believe that all the necessary moral equipment is in place well before 12 years of age, I would suggest we look at that case in Georgia last week where a bunch of 3rd graders came to school armed to the teeth with the intention of kidnapping and stabbing their teacher. Well, at 8 years of age it's "already in place" n'est pas? So, I think these little bastards should be strung up by their Buster Browns and tried as adults, just to "send a message" to the rest of all those underage desperadoes out there.
I mean, really, just what age do you all want to make as the cut off? After all, they all know the difference between right and wrong. Is there really no difference between the kiddies and adults? It's making things just great for the pedos out there these days, what with kids having their innocence destroyed at younger and younger ages, thanks, by the way, to the adults.

I have a great idea for a death penalty for toddlers, thanks to "Family Guy". Have the condemned felon sit on the toilet during potty training and pull out the safety seat, thereby drowning this budding danger to society.

Not one of us, including me, has the full story here. So, put away the nooses for now. As for "racism", look, white kids from poor families are probably the least likely to get a fair shake from the "justice system", not that McInerney should not be punished, and severely, for this. But don't worry, he will be. Prosecutors love these kinds of cases. Prosecuting kids is like shooting fish in a barrel, not that I agree with a life sentence for this necessarily.

For those who believe that there is no difference between kids and adults as far as moral culpability goes, I don't know what to say. There are indeed evil kids out there but I think they are rare. I don't know McInerney and neither does anybody else posting here. For now I have to say I disagree with you. But I think little is to be gained by dumping on his family.

Posted by BorderCrossedMe on April 21, 2008 at 4:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I completely agree with the fact that if the shooter had been a Hispanic and the victim had been Anglo, people would be wanting to try the kid as an adult... It's simple as that. And everyone on this blog knows it. Automatically the hispanic would be called an illegal or a gangmember who's parents are from across the border. It's not fair to stero type people.

Posted by readerone1 on April 21, 2008 at 5:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry but this boy went to school with the intent to kill another person. He had other options this was not a life or death situation. It’s was reputation. So in light of the less serious situation for McInerney, he didn’t tell his family, or teachers or any other person of authority to help with the problem he was having. He decided that this boy should die and that was it. He sought out a gun, complied a plan in his head and acted it out. I’m sure he knew it was going to be wrong, I can’t believe his undeveloped brain couldn’t distinguish that fact. It wasn’t in the heat of the moment as he had at least 24 hours to think over what he wanted to do. So if tried as a juvenile he’ll get too little time and he’ll get out, would you want him as your neighbor? Near your kids or friends? We don’t know if he is cured or if he’ll ever be cured, and certainly jail of any time it’s not going to help violent tendency’s. We don’t know if he is remorseful for what he did. We don’t know if he now thinks it’s wrong. Maybe he’ll only think it’s wrong because he got caught and if tried as an adult he’ll never see free life again until an old man if he makes it. If tried as a juvenile the sentence will be to light and he’ll be free way too soon. What message is that sending to other youths who may think that is the answer to their social problems. I think intentional killers regardless of age should get an equal time. That brain development is bunch nonsense when it pertains to killing another living being. Letting him get away with a light sentence (tried as a juvenile) would truly say that McInerney’s life is more valuable then Kings.

Posted by BorderCrossedMe on April 21, 2008 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Couldn't have said it better Readerone1.....

Posted by Face on April 21, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

BorderCrossedMe is a racist simple and plain, yeah him and John Wayne. And as far as others who wish to kill the child without all the facts, what if we find out this kid was threatened with something or may be the victim of a homosexual rape? Let the facts come out in trial and let the juvenile justice system work. If the perpetrator shot the victim just because he was wearing a dress, or to steal his wallet, then yes, he needs to be tried as an adult. But the facts do not support that and instead point to something much more complicated. You do know what complicated means right? I am amazed how articulate people can take up so much written space to spell out "Circumstances no important, child kill child, child must die like adult". Neanderthals with a tie.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 21, 2008 at 6:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think bordercross is way off base here. First of all this was not a racial incident. Secondly, if the shooter had been hispanic there would have been all kinds of "civil rights" groups screaming about "profiling" and rushing to judgement. The question is not about race. Deciding to try anybody in adult court should not be a numbers game where the system is expected to "even the score" just to make things look fair. Look at what happened in N. Carolina at Duke U. If those accused kids had been minorities every "activist" in the country would have been on campus demanding they be released. It was precisely because they were white that they were charged in the first place.

Readerone makes excellent points about whether anyone would want a released McInerney living on their street. I agree. However none of us knows the full story about how this all went down. Let the investigation continue. There may be more to this than anyone knows. Even in adult court it is doubtful he will be locked up until an old man. It's very likely he would be released long before that.

Posted by ironwoman on April 21, 2008 at 8:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

face-It's people with your views that make our system the way it is. Mcinerney killed another person. That is wrong and he should be locked up for the rest of his life for it.

Posted by readerone1 on April 22, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry but the best thing that can come out of this now is to set an example of McInerney so others don't follow his path. If he gets a light sentence it will send the wrong message to others who may consider the same action. We've had way too many school shootings and this is the first time we've actually had to opportunity to achieve justice and show consequences for horribly wrong actions, let it be remembered that the shooters life will be confined for most of his life and hopefully potential violent other teens out there with their under developed brains will have that part to remember because according to defense studies all persons under 20 have under developed brains. Another point: has McInerney plead guilty for the crime he did? Not yet anyway, looks like defense is even trying to get him off and they are already feeding the public that there are social and possible medical reasons for his actions. McInerney has not even taken responsibility for killing King. A lot of people feel sorry for him due to his age, but does he feel sorry for what he did. Lets see how this play out.

Posted by eguzie on April 22, 2008 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Im sorry but...these are all excuses...i agree with catlover(5th comment). He commited and an adult crime and he should be punished as one. If he is not charged as an adult for shooting someone in the HEAD then everyone under the age of 18 should be charged as juvenile, even if they killed, raped, vandilized...whatever...

Posted by BorderCrossedMe on April 22, 2008 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hahahaha your funny Face99. Couldn't really comment on what I put so you decided to call names. It's okay though.

Posted by dnwill75 on April 22, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

MMSHOOT: by refusing to hear the case, the Supreme Court upheld sentencing a 12 year old murderer to 30 years just last week.

Posted by freethought on April 22, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

dnwill75 - He was 12 when he killed his grandparents with a shotgun. The boy is 19 now (not that I'm detracting from your point).

mmshoot - I believe that dnwill75 was trying to say tha there already is a precedent (a recent one at that) for murder by persons under age 18.

Posted by Face on April 22, 2008 at 3:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Each case is decided on its own merits and (the word Neanderthals hate) circumstances. According to most here, we should not even have a jury system, after all all you need is "Child kill child, child must die". What would be the point of a jury and judge.. to hear circumstances? We don't need no stinking circumstances, that's the way we do it in the V.C.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 22, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gee, readerone seems to be so knowledgeable about this kid (hasn't taken responsibility, etc) I wonder where he or she is getting all this info. Must have his cell in juvie bugged or something.

If kids as young as 12 can be sentenced to life why not lower the age of sexual consent to 12 as well. That way at least the state will be consistent. If he's old enough to be considered mature enough to be held to adult standards of criminal accountability then he's old enough to engage in consensual sex with adults. Either way he is committing an "adult act". Makes no difference if it's sex or murder - the issue is the ability to reason as an adult. The pedos will love it, anyway.

Again, how young do we want to go? I know the Catholic Church regards 7 as the "age of reason", which means, technically anyway, that children this young could be damned to Hell if dying in a state of mortal sin. I suppose making them eligible for the death penalty should be allowed, as Hell is far worse than any prison in this life could ever be.

Whether or not, due to the publicity, McInerney can get a fair trial is probably questionable. It will most likely be moved out of the county and be delayed at least a year, which should suit the DA as it allows him to "grow tall in the hall" and present a more formidable appearance in court.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 22, 2008 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

One thing all of us should be a bit concerned about, though. Without denying the seriousness of McInerney's act, we are increasingly nevertheless living in what can only be called a police state, with extraordinary powers in the hands of prosecutors. There are a lot of Mike Nifongs out there these days, just salivating at the prospect at piling on charges on any one of us. Politics plays an increasingly important role, which BorderCrossing's post reminded me of. One of the biggest elephants in the politically correct living room these days regarding race in LA recently has been the undeniable, deliberate targeting by Hispanics of Blacks for murder. These, of course, are "hate crimes", but the police chief, mayor, DA's and media refuse to call it that. Too politically sensitive. This helps to hinder the cops in their investigations. Hispanics murdering Blacks just for the hell of it just hasn't penetrated into the national consciousness so it goes largely unnoticed.

In addition, it's incredibly easy for DA's to pile on 12 year old boys while a judge completely disallows evidence and testimony which could have shed light on his case as far as - oops! There's that word again! - circumstances. "Cuff 'em and stuff 'em" seems to be the order of the day today, at least with some kids. I guess there's a lot of young adolescent Genghiz Khans out there threatening the very safety of the nation and just gotta "send a message" to all those potential desperadoes secretly planning to visit mayhem upon us all. "Make an example of 'em", even though what happened here is extremely rare. I just sincerely hope no one posting here ever has to go through either the murder of a loved one OR go through a court case where you know there were things happening that might have affected the case of your own child. Believe me, it doesn't take much today to become ensnared in the spider's web of the "legal system".

It's sad that many kids have to be regarded as so dangerous that the only thing left is to stuff them in prison. It's even sadder that we have a "justice system" that, under cover of law, allows for the butchery of 4,000 children a day in their mothers' wombs. How's this for a contradiction - a female prosecutor who has had an abortion, murdering her own child, going into court to prosecute someone accused of murder. Murderers prosecuting murderers. Murderers punishing murderers. How sad. No wonder so many kids kill.

Posted by Face on April 22, 2008 at 5:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kids kill because of abortion? Nah, that kind of segue doesn't work. You are coming from a narrow religious viewpoint. Stick to the matter at hand.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 22, 2008 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry, Face, but you are wrong. The legalization of murder of the most defenseless among us HAS led to our current situation. I'm not going to get bogged down in this issue. With that I agree with you. However, the "narrow religious" view is precisely what is most lacking with too many of our kids. When you "separate God" from daily life buy some stock in the prison building industry. Also, I was trying to point out that we have a legal system that is in many respects as evil as any criminal they prosecute. I am not saying that kids will kill specifically because of abortion, but its legalization has absolutely lowered the bar on a general respect for innocent life in this country. When you can kill in the womb, you can kill anywhere.
That's all I am saying.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 22, 2008 at 7:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't know, Pogmothion. What "god" do you believe in? The one that suits you and doesn't demand any accountability from you; a god that justifies everything you do and makes you "feel good" about yourself? Isn't that precisely the mentality that many people are accusing McInerney of having?

Gee, on the one hand I read posts claiming there is only one standard of morality which cannot be deviated from and the boy must be dealt with regardless of circumstances and from you I'm reading that we can all pretty much pick and choose whatever "god" "turns us on" and which we can create ourselves. No wonder kids are confused.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 22, 2008 at 7:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You know, just when I thought it was impossible for our "justice system" to actually back up some of the things I was posting S. Carolina comes through with flying colors. A kid who threatened to blow up his school is facing "WMD" charges, which were originally intended to be filed against those who would use nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, specifically terrorists, to kill millions. You mean existing laws can't handle this? Although this kid should be punished, but life in prison? For "WMD"?!!

What universe am I living in? Another "Nifonging" in progress. I'll bet the DA really wet his pants on this one. I mean, life must be awfully boring down there. Like I said, if a DA can get away with it, he'll do it. We're becoming a nation of frightened morons.

At this rate "The Dangerous Book for Boys" will be on the Banned list and any Boy Scout reading one will be on the Watch List. Geez, soon there'll be no room left in prison for the real terrorists.

Posted by vaio1 on April 22, 2008 at 8:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As I read your comments I contine to think maybe you would think differently if you were teachers. Maybe you would think differently if you knew each of the boys. Maybe you would think differently if you were in the room like I was.

Posted by freethought on April 22, 2008 at 10:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - "...and from you I'm reading that we can all pretty much pick and choose whatever "god" "turns us on..."

You pretty much pegged why I am an atheist. You consider your god to be the absolute right one. Isn't your god and Pogmothoin's god the same (actually, I'm not sure what religion either of you are)? You talk of kids being confused, but you have said enough to confuse most adults once we really analyze what you have said. For me, the most confusing part is how you believe this conversation should somehow be steered towards the issue of abortion. So, let me help to clear some of the confusion, and put us back on track:

One kid felt compelled to bring a pistol to school and put a hole in another kid's head. We are talking about whether that shooter should be tried as an adult or a juvenile.

As for the god talk, why do you need a supreme being to hold you or anyone else accountable? Whether you believe in a higher power or not, you should be able to hold yourself accountable. We call that integrity.

Posted by freethought on April 22, 2008 at 10:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

vaio1 - Doesn't matter what you or any of us think. The jury will be made up of people, unlike yourself, who has no ties whatsoever to the case - as it should be.

Posted by ewarnold on April 22, 2008 at 11:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Aerodc8,

People of my faith DO NOT Murder. McInerney was obviously a disturbed kid and most likely was NOT
A prodestant. Prodestants DON'T murder for any reason. So,by pointing fingers at Prodestants is
ignorance on your part. One of the very basic principals in the Prodestant Faith is,"THOU SHALT NOT KILL!" If McInerney was A prodestant he
WOULDN'T have commited such a Horrific act.If your not sure,Prodestant
means,"Christian". Think before you point fingers Dude. The kid deserves the maximum punishment allowed by law.
The punishment should fit the crime.

JMA :o)

Posted by Face on April 23, 2008 at 6:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Prodestants don't commit murder? I think there are some dead Irish Catholics who may differ with that statement. I am not bashing a particular religion. Every organized religion has killed in the name of God at one time or another. No religion is untainted by the blood of innocents. Well, the exception possibly being a new small religion, I am talking about large long established religions of course. Enough about that, nobody can argue against these statements of fact. Now, what can help prevent these violent acts? Parental involvement in their children's lives. That doesn't been spoiling them, arguing with your child's teacher because they have assigned homework, buying them poisonous Chinese goods, teaching them it is good to cheat, abandoning your child to the state, or simply ignoring your child's bad behavior because correcting it would be such a hassle. How is it things have gotten so bad the last 30 years or so? I can tell you, you will not like it, you may try to argue otherwise, but here it is: Latchkey Kids. Children left with no parent at home, and when they get home, both are too tired to interact with their child. In essence, children are raised by t.v. and now sadly.... the Internet. Why must we have two-income families? Because we need to pay our mortgages on our land that is way way way overpriced. We need to have our houses filled with material crap and have phat cars in our driveways. Sure, you tell yourselves you are doing it for your kids... you lie to yourselves so you can sleep at night. And then, little Johnny... little Johnny seems to have grown from 8 to 14 so quickly! When was the last time you had a real talk with Little Johnny? Of course, he knows you love him.. he must.. after all.. doesn't he get the latest gadgetry and cool shoes? We shower Little Johnny with all the material goods we can buy... a subconscious penance for our lack of familial bonding and love. Maybe you could have done things different.. maybe move to a small town in another state where Mom or Dad could stay home with their children, to... what was it we used to do.. Raise the child. But then the weather is so nice out here and Johnny might not have the latest gadget that allows him to view pornography unabated. Ah, California... weather is great... welcome to the Latchkey State (one of many) leave your cares, worries, and responsibilities at the door. Let's all play make believe. I look forward to the many excuses for lack of parental responsibility that this comment generates.

Posted by Ms_California on April 23, 2008 at 6:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I can't believe that this attorney is turning the issue around on the school. What a great spin doctor this guy is! I mean com'on.. if we can't blame the kid who premeditated this murder, took the gun to school, shot his victim in the head from behind (cold blooded cowardly) and then walked off of the school's campus.. let's blame the school administration! They are a better escape goat right! People of all religions kill, I'm sorry to have to point out the truth but religion aside this kid needs to face his punishment whether it be as a adult or juvenile and his attorney should get the same sentence for blaming other people! I am sure the school could have curbed some of the issues but this kid knew what he was doing, he KNEW that he wanted to hurt Larry King. He is completely to blame here. JMO...

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 6:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Freethought

I'm sorry you are easily confused. Perhaps you should go to church. I am not trying to steer this conversation towards abortion. I am pointing out that we have a "system" that, on the one hand sanctions the murder of innocent human beings while at the same time reserves the right to punish others for doing something, while certainly evil, is not as evil as what they themselves allow. Any government that regards itself as above all law except its own soon begins to make up its own reality. We call that a lack of integrity. If you cannot see the hypocrisy of that, well, there's nothing I can do for you. Good luck on your journey. Just remember that there have been more people killed in the past century alone in the name of "humanism", "progress", "enlightenment" and "science" than were killed in the name of religion in the previous 19 centuries combined. Both Nazism and Communism rejected God and look at the result. The law risks losing all validity and making Pharisees of us all.

The truth is that if Brandon did have God in his life this would never have happened. This is not to get "off topic". It's very much ON topic. To pretend that issues like this can be discussed by separating them from other principles is at the least risible. Folks are willing to do all kinds of intellectual gymnastics to try to understand certain events until they butt their heads up against uncomfortable truths which may force them to look at themselves as well as the individuals they are condemning.

The saddest thing of all is that our children are all too often required to find their own way morally and spiritually. Often they end up paying the highest price, as Larry and Brandon, and the adults who helped put them there go on their merry way. McInerney must pay the price for his actions certainly, but I would still like to see at least some effort put into the regarding of age and circumstances.

TheVeracious1 makes an excellent point. Sometimes demanding full responsibility from someone allows one to wash one's own hands, Pontious Pilate style (sorry for the religious analogy), of responsibility for oneself.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 7:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ms california

I don't think the attorney is blaming the school for the shooting itself. But he is certainly correct in pointing out that it was indeed the school that may have helped set the stage for this tragedy. Allowing a teenager to come to school dressed as a woman is at the least very provocative. Since when should 11, 12 and 13 year olds , who are just beginning to find their own identities, be required to face things like this in the classroom? To point this out is NOT to lessen responsibility for a wrong act. But again, here are adults, who should have known better, able to refuse to accept their own responsibility for what happened. Let's face it, if Larry King was not allowed to dress as a woman in school this would never have happened. But here we have the same old song from the ADULTS - nope, not our fault. It's up to the kids to sort this out for themselves, all in the name of diversity, don't you know. But this "commitment to diversity" may well have gotten one kid killed and another facing life in prison. Again, it doesn't lessen McInerney's blame but it's just plain sickening to see the adults here trying to pretend that there was nothing they could have done to prevent this. I don't know how they can live with themselves. But again, preaching "personal responsibility" for kids but not accepting it for themselves is a public school specialty.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 7:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Uh, ewarnold, I'm not sure what it is you are trying to say. First of all, "Protestant" is spelled with a "t", not a "d". Secondly, where did I state anything about Protestant or any other religious affiliation? But since you brought it up I'll respond.

I don't know how you can state that a Protestant would never have done such a thing as this. How do you know if McInerney is a "prodestant" or not? If you must know, yes, I am a Catholic. To state that Protestants are incapable of murder is somewhat strange. I mean, the Irish were massacred, starved and even enslaved because of their refusal to accept the man made church of Henry VIII, an ephebophile serial murderer who invented the Church of England out of thin air because he couldn't get an annullment in order to marry a 16 year old girl.

But none of this has anything to do with this topic, unless you wish to point out that it is precisely the lack of God in these kids' lives (including Larry) that leads to such tragic incidents.

Must McInerney be punished? Of course. Bit I still believe, barring future revelations as to his true character, that this case may be better served in juvenile court. But in the end, anything any of us says here will have no impact as to how it will turn out. Even if tried as an adult, it may be exactly that punishment that might bring McInerney back to God. If he were my kid, I'd rather see him in prison in this life than have him in Hell in the next.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It has clearly and accurately been reported that Larry accessorized his UNIFORM with make-up, heeled boots and jewelry. When those of you feel the need to point fingers at the adults in Larry’s life for allowing such abominable behavior, EO Green as well as Casa Pacifica, you fail to realized one very important point. The adults employed by Hueneme School District and Casa Pacifica are just that employee’s…not parents. These employees are required to follow licensing regulations (Title 22) and state bills, introduced and passed by our elected officials. Note Mike Eng’s new bill stemming from this tragedy. …The new bill would require mandatory classes on diversity and tolerance in California school districts. "We need to teach young people that there's a curriculum called tolerance education that should be in every school. We should teach young people that diversity is not something to be assaulted, but diversity is something that needs to be embraced because diversity makes California the great state that it is," Eng said…. I’m sorry if you have jobs without parameters and regulations however I ask that you recognize that these teachers and counselors were under specific restraints, whether they agreed or not. If you must point fingers, point them in the right direction…your law-makers.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 8:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't forget Prince!!!

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 8:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - Sorry to inform you of just how WRONG you are on so many points. I am not easily confused. You are simply trying to confuse in order to push your religious views on abortion which have absolutely nothing to do with this article.

As far as the number of atrocities committed in the name of whatever - religion does take the lead. In fact, Hitler and the entire Nazi movement was based on religion. Hitler himself was deeply religious, so there goes that argument. He preached that his was the "true" or "master" religion (based on Catholicism), because it would "create mastery and avoid comforting lies". You might want to head to the library before making fictional statements.

"Any government that regards itself as above all law except its own soon begins to make up its own reality. We call that a lack of integrity."

You just describe the Catholic Church as it has been run for centuries (not Catholics themselves, but the political powers that run the church). Honestly, when you try to use religion in any form to justify your position, I and anyone else willing to do a little research can very easily render your position benign.

"...unless you wish to point out that it is precisely the lack of God in these kids' lives (including Larry) that leads to such tragic incidents."

My kids are not raised with any god in their lives. They are both Honors/AP students, and are well-respected by their friends and adults alike. Meanwhile, practically every gang member in Ventura County is a deeply-religious Catholic - many with religious tattoos on their bodies. So, exactly how does that fit into the picture now? Are you now deciding to show complete disrespect to Larry's family by saying they didn't instill enough fear of God in his life? Or that he sinned everyday by being gay? It amazes me just how arrogant your "religious" statements really are.

As an atheist, I have no problem with religion. I have many friends who are religious, and they have found it to be enriching to their lives. It is what you make of it. By indicating your "brand" of religion is or was required to save either kid is a sign of superiority on your part (much like what Hitler attempted).

Speaking of which - did it make you feel superior to correct ewarnold's spelling of "protestant"? The tone of your comment certainly indicated it.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - "This country was based on freedom of religion, protecting us from one govt/one religion. Compassion for childred should be common whether you believe in Jesus or Muhammad or the Flying Spagetti Monster."

Absolutely! Although, I do believe that Brandon should be punished for this crime if convicted, I know the boy must feel completely hopeless and afraid as he contemplates possibly spending the rest of his life in a cage with truly horrifying individuals. On that level, I do feel sorry for him.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

More for aerodc8:

"The truth is that if Brandon did have God in his life this would never have happened."

How do you know he didn't have God in his life? maybe it was his convictions on the Bible's stance on homosexualtiy that drove him to murder. Mark 9:47 states, "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Maybe Brandon saw Larry as an offending entity to his still-developing sexuality and decided to "remove" him rather than continue being offended and chance hell. I'm not saying this is the case, because I (and you) do not know what was going on in Brandon's head. Anytime you use religion to strengthen your argument, I can just as easily use it to weaken your argument.

Also, by making that statement about Brandon's "lack of religion", are you not casting judgment? "Judge not, that ye not be judged" - that Matthew 7:1. Yet there you are, casting stones at both Brandon and Larry. It's like you're in a religion restaurant, and you're ordering "religion a la carte", picking and choosing which parts of the Bible most fit your narrow views.

"Perhaps you should go to church."

Perhaps you should stay out of the advice business. I am very happy with my life as it is.

Posted by Face on April 23, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I understand where some of you are coming from, frustrated. It is easy to be frustrated when today's youth idols are showing their clam on t.v. for kicks. Your kids are enjoying a new form of entertainment with their video products, girls sending lurid sex videos via phone messaging to boys in class (this is the norm now, not the exception). Your daughter probably has a nude sex video on the net right now. It is easy to see morality drifting to the wayside and becoming angry as a result.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin, do you have any literature on the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Maybe some pamphlets? Sounds interesting to me, as it combines two of my favorite things into a walking, breathing higher authority.

I absolutely loved that line.

Also, thanks for the link. Those are absolutely wonderful life rules that all would do good to apply.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

face99 - That second to last sentence is kind of presumptuous, but you make a good point.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - Please disregard my request. I'll just buy the book like mmshoot.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - It's funny how much easier it is to read pirate-English than it is to read text message-English. You could be on to a new trend.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - I think mmshoot has you pegged. Of course, I'm not saying I don't agree with your frustration.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'll walk the plank with ye!

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothion
Not funny, but as true as it can be. Henry VIII was as evil as they came, completely self-absorbed, arrogant, egotistical and a perfect example of the "I can do it alone and my way" attitude so prevalent today. And his legacy led to tens of thousands of innocent lives being lost all due to his selfish, infantile evil desires. Even today his legacy is felt after 4 centuries of Irish oppression and the effects on England as well.

Freethought, please take care that you are not so open minded your brain falls out. I'll pray for your kids. As usual, criticism of religious beliefs is very picky about what is chosen to illustrate a point. I really don't think Brandon did this as part of a religious crusade. This kid didn't have much in the way of anything going for him. As far as being in danger in prison I would hope you would not take some perverse pleasure in a young boy being subjected to the various evils in there. There are lot of sick, perverted individuals who apparently see nothing wrong with boys like him being abused as long as the state is doing it.People like that are no different from child molesters themselves. And I hope you are right when you state some level of concern about what he would face. As I have said, there are many, many evils done in the name of the "law".

I do feel sorry that you have ensured that God is not part of your childrens' lives. I hope whatever else you decide to place there will guide them to productive lives, but it's still a piss poor replacement for the real thing.

Besides, if Brandon puts his faith in God I believe he will be protected from all that.

Pogmothion, as far as King being allowed to come to school dressed as a girl, I think you know what the hell I'm talking about. This is what caused this mess to begin with. There is a huge difference between girls wearing slacks and boys coming to class in dresses and nylons. In doing so this school allowed some pretty confused ideas to remain fixed in an already confused young boy's mind. But, I guess, "to each his or her own", and who cares what results from it.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - Are you insinuating that I am brainless? It's good that you keep commenting. People can easily see you for the spin master that you are. How do you know what Brandon's reasoning were or weren't? You don't, of course. How do you know, for instance that Brandon didn't put his faith in God before the incident? Maybe, God failed him, and he took matters into his own hands. Maybe, maybe not. No one knows yet, but you seem to think you are all-knowing in this matter. Are you God?

My comment to Pogmothoin about what Brandon might be going through was sincere, yet you turned it into something perverse. Again, you have shown your true self here. This easily shows where your thoughts are. Maybe, you should just concentrate on praying for yourself.

"...it's still a piss poor replacement for the real thing." - You said.

Now, you have opened the door to a different conversation entirely. So, let's begin. What real thing are you talking about? Something is real when it has substance. You, of course have no proof of what you call real. You expect me and all other to rely on "faith" because of this. My kids have the real thing - a set of parent who care about them, who teach them right from wrong, who hold them accountable for their actions, and who is not afraid to let them know that we, too, are human and subject to mistakes and their penalties. You, however, have a system where you do nothing yourself and expect someone you've never seen or heard (except maybe in your head) to save you from any sort of trouble and deliver all your needs to your doorstep. You have a belief system that requires fear to keep you in line, lest you be cast into some sort of active volcano-like environment full of gnashing teeth, or something like that. I do not need such fear. I do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. I am accountable to myself, my wife, and my children (and my boss at times). As I said before, it's called integrity.

To all others - This is not a criticism of your belief, just of someone who feels he/she is above everyone else, and has the authority to steer the conversation into religion and abortion. I know many people who find religion to help them through many troubled times in life, and I wouldn't want to dissuade what works for any of you.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 11:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I meant, "and who ARE not afraid" - one correction of a few typos in my comment above. let's see how many aerodc8 will find to make himself/herself feel even more superior.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, I wouldn't want spaghetti sauce all over my good shirt.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Really? I thought Pogmothoin was joking, so I was responding in kind. Nothing "rough" intended.

If you are referring to my response above to aerodc8 where I mentioned Pogmothoin, you must look further up these comments to see what I was talking about. Pogmothoin mentioned compassion for children no matter what, and I agreed that I did have some concern for Brandon, no matter his crime. The above comment was not directed at Pogmothoin, but at aerodc8.

I hope that clarifies.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - To further clarify, aerodc8 indicated that my statement, "I know the boy must feel completely hopeless and afraid as he contemplates possibly spending the rest of his life in a cage with truly horrifying individuals," to which I followed with, "On that level, I do feel sorry for him." I meant every word.

However, aerodc8 indicated in his/her statement that my comment might have been maliciously intended. With that, I took issue. aerodc8 is nothing more than a spin master looking to discredit anyone who stands in his/her way on abortion and religious issues, which are not even the topic for this article.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin, aren't you supposed to be on the plank?

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothion, as far as King being allowed to come to school dressed as a girl, I think you know what the hell I'm talking about. This is what caused this mess to begin with. There is a huge difference between girls wearing slacks and boys coming to class in dresses and nylons. In doing so this school allowed some pretty confused ideas to remain fixed in an already confused young boy's mind. But, I guess, "to each his or her own", and who cares what results from it.

For the record, Aerodc8: Larry NEVER wore a dress to school!!! DB

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Correction - mmshoot - To further clarify, aerodc8 was referring to my statement, "I know the boy must feel completely hopeless and afraid as he contemplates possibly spending the rest of his life in a cage with truly horrifying individuals," to which I followed with, "On that level, I do feel sorry for him." I meant every word.

However, aerodc8 indicated in his/her statement that my comment might have been maliciously intended. With that, I took issue. aerodc8 is nothing more than a spin master looking to discredit anyone who stands in his/her way on abortion and religious issues, which are not even the topic for this article.

-Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OFD_Wife - Thanks for adding that fact.

Also, I looked over your statement for any grammatical errors to anticipate any corrections from aerodc8. It seems you are criticism-safe on that matter.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - I hope you shaved first.

You are keeping me smiling here.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I thought it was because he likes burly football players.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ohhhhhhhhh. Roger that.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Roger's a big burly football player.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 2:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - Please respond quickly and SAVE (pun intended) Pogmothoin from further degradation!

Posted by Equitable_Enforcer on April 23, 2008 at 2:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree strongly with those who suggest the school at least shares in the responsibility for what happened. This is one of those rare instances where I suport a public defender.

For an administrator to allow such a flagrant violation of the dress code ... and to justify it by playing constitutional lawyer ... set the stage for the tragedy. Incidentally, Larry's brother was sent home from school one day for a violation of the same dress code. He had on the wrong color of trousers.

Though Brandon pulled the trigger, it would appear that Larry was killed, at least in part, by political correctness.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yikes!!! Thanks for straightening me out, freethought. How ever did you discover my spinning agendas?

I'm glad your family is intact and all is well. I'm sorry if I offended you. It wasn't intended.

As for the "God Thing", I assure you it is not "in my head". You are a "man of reason", believing in only what you can touch, or feel, or see, etc. Well that's OK. St Thomas was the same way. There's still hope.

Funny, though. I have a cousin with a doctorate in molecular biology from MIT who is extremely devout. Must be something wrong with him.

I do know that if I had a son in either of these circumstances (in the grave or facing prison), dealing only in what I can physically sense would all of a sudden have little meaning for me. Indeed, why even bother going to the grave or visiting the prison if all there was was the physical realities of these losses. Nothing but oblivion after death, and nothing but a pointless life in an institution which has nothing but oblivion at the end of that life as well. In fact, in such circumstances, what meaning would there be in Larry's or Brandon's lives? Nothing. Nothing but emptiness ending in death. Believing in matter over spirit means no ultimate hope. Drive past a cemetery and see that the rich man and the homeless man lie side by side in their graves with nothing of substance to show for it. Both are rotted away into dust. Seems like a pretty pointless existence to me.

I truly hope you have not been beset with misfortune in you or your family's lives. Because when such a thing happens, the things you can see or touch or feel begin to lose all their significance. It's not enough. Nothing "of substance" is ever going to fill that awful, awful emptiness when you are utterly powerless to save your own child or wife or parent or yourself. In fact, if God truly does not exist why not just pump cyanide gas through every correctional institution and get it over with for them right now? What do they have to look forward to? Not even peace of soul which Christ could give them with the knowledge that, if forgiven, they have something awaiting them that makes every suffering on earth look puny in comparison.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 3:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If younger brother, R, was sent home for the wrong color trousers, that IS a violation of the dress code. DUH. I will repeat myself...

It has clearly and accurately been reported that Larry accessorized his UNIFORM with make-up, heeled boots and jewelry. When those of you feel the need to point fingers at the adults in Larry’s life for allowing such abominable behavior, EO Green as well as Casa Pacifica, you fail to realized one very important point. The adults employed by Hueneme School District and Casa Pacifica are just that employee’s…not parents. These employees are required to follow licensing regulations (Title 22) and state bills, introduced and passed by our elected officials. Note Mike Eng’s new bill stemming from this tragedy. …The new bill would require mandatory classes on diversity and tolerance in California school districts. "We need to teach young people that there's a curriculum called tolerance education that should be in every school. We should teach young people that diversity is not something to be assaulted, but diversity is something that needs to be embraced because diversity makes California the great state that it is," Eng said…. I’m sorry if you have jobs without parameters and regulations however I ask that you recognize that these teachers and counselors were under specific restraints, whether they agreed or not. If you must point fingers, point them in the right direction…your law-makers.

Timearrow, I know that you are aquainted with Greg but be real!!!

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

But no God? Hell, if that's the case I would shoot my own son myself before he could be sent away, because what would be the point - prison or death, it makes no difference because all we are is matter and matter only. And what about those like, say, Stalin or Pol Pot, who have never been brought to justice for their crimes and die peacefully in bed? The very thought of no accountability there is truly a monstrous joke. You know, if this kid is convicted he will be punished more severely than war criminals or Mafia hit men. I have a friend living in Boston working in criminal law and he told me that a guy named "Cadillac Frank Salemme" , a notorious mobster in the New England and New York Mob will be released soon from prison after a fairly short stint. He got a deal from the DA. How many killings has this guy been involved with, 30,40? Who knows. But McInerney may well die in prison. But, that's the way it is. The real balancing of the scales, so to speak, cannot take place in this life. It's impossible.

But I take my hat off to you, freethought. You must be a much stronger man than I am. But if I were blessed with children the thought, every time I looked at them asleep, that after this life there is only nothingness and oblivion for them, would break my heart. All of that beauty and warmth and joy ultimately for nothing. To not being able to look forward to being with them again in eternity, which will never end, especially if I had lost one of them to death in childhood, is something I'm not sure I could bear. Or if I had to visit a son for decades to come in prison and not believe there was a great reward for him in Heaven after this exile on earth. Your believing in only what you can directly experience ends ultimately in the death of all hope. I don't know how you do it. I truly hope that changes for you someday.

Just to look at the intricate design of my nephew's ear makes me marvel. It ain't just matter, freethought. There is a will and an intention and a design behind every kid. Maybe someday you'll pay attention to a still, small yet powerful voice "in your own head", calling you by name.

Pogmothion, I stand corrected regarding King's dress code. I didn't realize you knew him. However, I stand by my contention that "validating" him in his open homosexuality was still very, very wrong and a middle school classroom IS NO place to allow things like this. They'll have plenty of time to have their values undermined in high school.

I will repeat my claims about Henry VIII. He was a monster of the first order, an adulterer, liar and murderer. He destroyed an entire Catholic civilization in England and set in motion religious wars and persecutions for decades, even centuries to come. He remains one of the true villains of our civilization.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I will also ask this question, all those who support our lawmakers that introduce and successfully have passed any bill that supports gender diversity in the classroom/school, are you to blame for Larry’s death as well.

Posted by Face on April 23, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,3...

Link to new Teen cellphone trend.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 23, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OFD Wife

Excellent points but falling back on "I'm just an employee" is no excuse. It just sounds like another "adult" rationalization from these people while they demand "accountability" from the kids. Just because the obersturmbanfuhrers of the "diversity police" demand such and such a "program" be implemented doesn't make it right. I still maintain that the "diversity" crap had a lot to do with setting the stage for conflict in school. True, it didn't make McInerney take a gun to school. I still think much more was going here than most of us know.

No one is saying teach kids to hate anybody, just let them be, especially at 11,12 or 13. The claim by the school that "we wuz just following orders" is pure bull****.

"Our elected officials" may be wrong. Geez, just what we need - another "program" on "tolerance". When do they start learning something of substance?

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 3:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Humm OK Aero, apparently you are self employed. Can't argue with you if you set your own paramenters, policies and procedures. Lucky you. Some of us aren't as fortunate and would be terminated if not compliant. Maybe that is a cop out, who knows, I personally do not see it as one. MM-shoot. I am being real. There was a SB passed in January(I can't remember the number) but it requires all school officials/employees to NOT discriminate based on gender identity. Maybe all teachers should quite teaching rather that abide by a passed state bill. You decide.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 3:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry "quit" on "quite" teaching

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 4:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree...then what is their choice? And please understand, at no time am I trying to be confrontational. I just know too much about what people involved in this were required to respect and endure. Many of them with such big hearts and don't deserve to be made targets of blame.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow aerodc8! Yours is a scary, shallow world. You actually need to believe in something after death to comfort you? You know what I look forward to? Tomorrow. I'm just happy to have the opportunity to live. When I visit the tombstones of those gone by, I celebrate the memory I have of them. That is how most of us honor the dead. Of course they are now only substance. It's not about what remains, but once was and how great it made us feel. I guess you'll never get that.

You mentioned my children and the thought of nothing awaiting them. How empty you must feel without a bible in your hands when you're driving or using the restroom to say such a misguided thing. My children have extremely fruitful lives ahead of them. Based on their grades, social acceptance, and steadfast tenacity, they are both destined to be much more successful than I ever was. That was my goal from the beginning over a deacade and a half ago, and it is slowly coming to fruition. You have indicated that you do not have children of your own. That is probably a good thing, as they would not be able to blossom under your strict narrow views of the world.

You said, " In fact, if God truly does not exist why not just pump cyanide gas through every correctional institution and get it over with for them right now?" I'll tell you why - because it's the wrong thing to do. That you can't see this extremely simple fact makes me weary of you. This statement is actually borderline psychotic. However, I understand that you are trying to make an extreme point. So, if my answer above isn't enough for you, then I would ask you why you wouldn't just turn the cyanide on yourself instead? Of course, I am thinking that you probably would given the severity of your religious "convictions".

I do agree that the human ear is quite a marvel, much like the rest of the Homo sapiens organism. However, we didn't get here overnight. It took between 3 billion and 4 billion years of evolution to make that human ear you are so fascinated with. Quite a long time to wait, but the result is quite spectacular (yet completely explainable).

As for your cousin, have him checked out immediately. The scientist part of him must be failing miserably. To address you St Thomas comment - consider me a reverse-St. Thomas. I started out a believer (only due to upbringing) and found real truth.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 4:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The Eng bill will face very stiff opposition from the ultra-right wingers that think sex is a four letter word."

mmshoot - You have proven (once again) how funny the truth is.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Yikes!!! Thanks for straightening me out, freethought."

Anytime aerodc8. I'm here to help.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry mmshoot, I didn't think it through properly.

Pogmothoin - I think your addition made it more special.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - Speak for yourself.

Posted by freethought on April 23, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I take it back. You can speak for me, too. You summed everyone of us up quite well.

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 23, 2008 at 9:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nope...speak for everyone but me, with all due respect.

Posted by West_to_East on April 24, 2008 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

THERE ARE A LOT OF OUTRAGOUS COMMENTS ABOUT THIS INCIDENT. AND I SAY INCIDENT BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS. YES, A KID WAS KILLED DO TO THE INCIDENT. GIVEN SO, YOU CAN NOT LOOK AT IT IN ONE POINT OF VIEW. PEOPLE QUESTION ON HOW THIS TEENAGER SHOULD BE TRIED. ADULT OR JUVENILE. THE SCHOOL CAN NOT SAY THEY WERE NOT AWARE OF THE PROBLEM AND HAVE HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS SAYING OTHER WISE. IF TODAY IN SOCIETY ADULTS HAVE PROBLEMS DEALING WITH IT AND GET SENTECED FOR LESS TIME ON THE SAME TYPE OF CRIME. WHY SHOULD THIS TEENAGER GET 51 YRS AND TRIED AS AN ADULT. IF THIS IS WHAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE GOTTEN TO, I GUESS WE SHOULD ALL MOVE TO PRIVATE SCHOOL.

WHERE OUR CHILDREN DONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR PEERS CROSS DRESSING AND ADMINISTATION NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. PUBLIC SCHOOLS TOOK UP A DRESS CODE WHY? IS A BOY COMING TO SCHOOL WITH MAKE-UP ON OR HEELS ON NOT DISTRACTING, BUT A KID TEXTING ON A CELL PHONE IS. HOW ABOUT DISTRICTS GET TOGETHER AND FIGURE OUT WHATS DISTRACTING RIGHT. THEY ARE A JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT AND OR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THE MIND FRAME OF A TEENAGER IS RIGHT, BUT NOW SOMETHING SERIOUS HAPPENDS IT'S NOT ON THEIR BEHALF OR THEIR PROBLEM.

IF YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR A STUDENT, BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERYTHING NOT CERTAIN THINGS. AND FOR SOMEONE THAT LEFT A COMMENT ON IF IT WAS A GANG MEMBER. COME ON PLEASE A GANG MEMBER HAS A DECISION TO BE IN A GANG, BE STUPID SEPERATE YOURSELF ON A SPOTTED CATEGORY. A TEENAGER THAT IS A DELIQUENT OR NOT IS GOING TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL AND IS HAVING A BOY HARRASS HIM TELLING HIM HE LIKES HIM AND SO ON, DRESSING UP LIKE A GIRL, SEEN ON THE STREETS IN THE SAME ATTIRE. BUT EVERYONE HAS RIGHTS, RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION. YET LETS CHARGE A HATE CRIME BECAUSE HE KILLED THIS BOY THAT WAS GAY. NO A CROSS DRESSER. LET'S SAY HE WAS GAY BECAUSE NO ONE HAS YET.

COME ON, AND THIS ARTICLE SAYS THE STUDENTS AND GAY AND LEBIAN PETITIONS REALLY HAVE NO SAY, THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HAVE A WORD IN IT. WELL THIS IS WHY THIS KIDS LIFE WAS TAKEN, BECAUSE IF THE PUBLIC DID AND THESE STUPID ASS LAW MAKERS AND GOVENERS AND SO FORTH LISTENED AND PAYED ATTENTION TO THE PUBLIC AND THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD. THERE WOULDN'T BE SHOOTINGS AT SCHOOL, BIG FIGHTS, CROSS DRESSING AND TEENAGERS AND COLLEGE STUDENTS GETTING KILLED.

I AGREE THIS TEENAGER SHOULD BE PUNISHED BUT 51 YEARS IN PRISON AND TRIALED AS AN ADULT IS SIMPLY PATHETIC AND AND MAN OR WOMAN THAT IS PUSHING IS FAR BEYONG PATHETIC. YOU SIMPLY DONT TRY TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OUT OF A TEENAGER OR CHILD. A SLAP ON THE RISK ISN'T OK BECAUSE MURDER ISN'T ACCEPTABLE (OH WIAT UNLESS THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING IT).

WELL THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ON THIS

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The scary thing is that I could actually understand what I was reading. I guess I should cancel that authentic fronties gibberish class I signed up for the summer. No longer need it.

On the whole, I agree with West_to_east's satatement, though.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - That explains it. I hit my head when I walked into a door. Now that things are clear, West_to_East's comment seems a mess.

By the way, Pirate 101 is all full until next semester. The counselor advised me that Village People Studies G69 was still available. Not sure what he meant.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 10:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - Now, you're scaring me.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm a former Marine - we're all a bit thick. That's why we joined.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 24, 2008 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OFD

No, I'm not self-employed but hope to be someday. Sorry, what you say is just so much excuse making. "Well, we have to obey procedure, blah, blah, blah." If everyone thought that way nothing would ever be truly reformed. I'm not talking about going along with regulations that merely define certain procedures. I'm referring to allowing things in class that may be truly inappropriate for children of this age. When they finish middle school they may know how to put a condom on a cucumber, know all about "Heather's two mommies" and how OK it is to shack up without marriage, but may not be able to locate their own state capital on a map, diagram a sentence or how to solve a quadratic equation. Sometimes you gotta speak up and not just chew your cud in the middle of the herd just to keep your job. There is an awesome responsibility to educating children properly. Leave the sex-ed to their parents where it belongs. What's going on now is a form of child molestation when the innocence of children is under all out assault nationwide. Sometimes I think the latency period of childhood has been banned by government decree.

Freethought I spoke to my cousin last week. He's doing just fine and every so often drives his fellow researchers to distraction in the odd debate about God vs science. Since they work for him they have to put up with him. He graduated third in his class at MIT, he has taught at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and is highly respected in both genetics and molecular biology. Not bad for a guy with his head not on too straight. May I suggest you see Ben Stein's new movie "Expelled". I hear it's already pissed a lot of the "beautiful people" off quite handily.
I'm sorry I weary you. Have you tried drinking Jolt? Great stuff.
I think you completely missed the point I was trying to make. I don't support mass murder of those in prison. But (and if this too tiring for you I'll understand if you don't respond), might I ask WHY it is wrong to exterminate inmates en masse? Where did that sanction against the taking of innocent life originate? (Though those guys are all guilty of something). I mean, says who? You? Me? The "state"? You know, in Nazi Germany it was perfectly legal to commit mass murder and those who spoke out against it were themselves killed. Not one nazi war criminal, or Soviet, or Communist, broke a single law of their own countries. Just what made "our" law superior to theirs? To what authority did we refer when we declared that mass murder was wrong? Says who?

Posted by aerodc8 on April 24, 2008 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry if this appears to be off topic, but it really is very much on topic.

Anyway, freethought, when I was referring to what lies ahead for your children or mine I was not talking about a fruitful life in this life. I was referring to the true future destination, for all of us, in Heaven (or, God forbid, Hell). This life really is relatively short and can be filled with misfortune and tragedy. What do you tell someone who is trapped in a life of suffering? Hang in there, kid, cuz when you die it's all over, just nothingness? Just a nice, dirt nap? Do you see a transcendent value in suffering, or is it for you something to be abhorred and feared? To be avoided at all costs?

You ever hear that song, "Is that all there is"? What a terrible thing wasted suffering can be! It can make us bitter and full of despair, or it can be offered up to Someone outside of ourselves who will take it and give it meaning, to ennoble us. It can destroy or transform. With God, it can help us actually help detach us from the mere material and teach us about the spiritual, and that everything around us will pass away sooner or later and that the happiness we were created for will make this material life seem almost like a dream. It doesn't for one second mitigate the importance of this life. In fact, it lifts it up to a much higher level and gives it more meaning.
You labor under the illusion that a relationship with God is entirely passive. It is exactly the opposite. It requires, if anything, far greater heroism and courage and our deliberate willingness and consent to do the hard work necessary to try to help those around us. The true Homeland of your children does indeed lie in the clouds, but not the clouds of a material, romanticized ideal you would see in a painting. It lies above, and it is very real, I assure you.

I would hope both Brandon's and Larry's parents are turning for help to the only One who can possibly give them any peace of mind and soul. Whether or not Brandon deserves life in adult prison I don't know, but I do believe our justice system reflects much of the coarseness and evil that is rampant in our society. The legal system itself destroys young lives. Our kids are being tried as adults at younger and younger ages and there seems to be a national consensus that prisons are the only way to deal with all of these truly screwed up kids. This means that these kids are simply given up for lost. The prison guards' union is probably delighted.

Brandon, through much suffering, may find his salvation in prison. Who knows? But the reward God will have for him at the end of that road of penance will be far greater than it would have been had he never committed any crime. And the system that will punish him will itself crumble away into dust someday.

Still awake?

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 4:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - I'm glad your cousin is doing so well, despite his misgivings of reality. When you asked about the extermination of inmates en masse (essentially, but not precicely, this means in large numbers), I can't think of one instance where the federal government or any state government participated in this sort of action towards it's incarcerated convicts. So, I assume that you are talking once again about abortion. So, here's my opinion (based in, of course, science) on that front. I personally don't believe it's right after the second trimester UNLESS it has been verified that the fetus will be severely diabled - basically a vegetable made of human flesh and blood - because I couldn't imagine putting someone through that sort of life. As for Trimester 1, we know that, at this point, there are absolutely no cognitive functions on even the most basic level. If the pregnancy is unwanted, why put soemone through an ordeal that could ruin or negatively alter her life (and the father's life, for that matter)? To support some outdated religious agenda? If you so desperately want to continue to call this murder when the developmental stage can be compared to that of an insect, then you should also campaign on the side of pro-life for mosquitos, black widow spiders, common house flies, and the like. They actually have more cognitive abilities than an embryo.

As to what made our laws superior to Nazi Germany's, the former USSR's, North Korea's, and China's, among others, is that we don't execute people for their political convictions - unless those convictions lead them to murder someone. In fact, if our laws were anything like theirs, you'd be hauled out of your easy chair, and lined up blindfolded infront of a squad of soldiers armed with loaded rifles for what you've posted over the last couple of days. It actually makes me proud to know you have the ability to continue to post these remarks, no matter how extreme I think they are, without fear.

By the way, I advise you to take it easy with the Jolt. Besides the carbonated water, all of its ingredients are horrible for the body. It's much like soda, but with less calories and more caffiene. fresh coffee is actually better for you, as it contains a good dose of antioxidants.

Also, I'll tell you how sex-ed DOES work in choldren's best interest. It ensures they receive the knowledge that will keep them from having to go to an abortion clinic later. Sometimes, Mom and Dad refuse to talk to them about it. I know that it shouldn't be the educator's job, but I'm glad they're doing it anyway. Anything that'll limit the number of children born into poverty that will both add pressure to our dwindling tax coffers AND place another child in an unwanted situation, I'm all for. For those Moms and Dads who DO talk to their kids about sex, they are usually talking about it at levels that are further along than the class curriculum for that grade.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 4:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerdc8 - I'll respond to your last comment later. Gotta run for now.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - aerodc8 is once again referring to abortion as mass-extermination.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"in choldren's best interest" - I meant "children's"

Now, I'm really running late.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 24, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Geez, freethought, get a grip. I was NOT talking about abortion here. But I'm glad you're engaging me all the same. But you are still misunderstanding my point. Oh well, keep trying.

Anyway, it's a short stretch between declaring an unborn child will be severely disabled and saying, "for their own good", that we should kill the kid anyway because he "may be subject to criminal tendencies". If you think I'm kidding, look it up. Just last year a researcher claimed that the crime rate was lower because abortions in certain groups (read blacks) had been aggressively practiced. I suggest you read about Margaret Sanger, the Nazi sympathizing "founder" of feminism and birth control. And, by the way, if we used your standards of "disabled" we would never have enjoyed the music of Beethoven. If any modern, "enlightened" soul in medicine had seen HIS ultrasound he would have said, "Man, what a disaster. Gotta flush his ass down the toilet".

Thanks for your concern about the goon squads with the loaded rifles. What you fail to see, however, it is precisely because of the influence of Christendom in the West that made our moral system superior to theirs. Both Germany and Russia were aggressively secular, atheistic systems that savagely persecuted the Church. In fact, Communist Russia was the first truly officially atheist state, exceeding Hitler's death tally before a single shot was fired in WW II. The Founding Fathers, flawed as they were, nevertheless were completely influenced by Christianity. Western Civilization was created by Christendom, and whatever decency remains in it today is due to the vestigial influences it still has, though it is waning, which would help explain an exploding prison population.

Thanks for the advice about the Jolt.

I'll have to ask my cousin regarding the sentient abilities of spiders and mosquitos, but the casual way in which you compare them to humans in gestation is a little disturbing.
Overall I'm actually enjoying this give and take.

mmshoot

If they are molesting their own children, the punish them, severely. That hardly justifies implementing an overall policy of teaching them things that I, as a parent, would find objectionable. If I ever saw an adult, in school or out, demonstrating to my son or daughter how to use a condom, especially having them put it on a piece of fruit or a vegetable, I'd beat the crap out of him.

That same Supreme Court once rendered the Dred Scott decision, declaring blacks to be the legal chattel, property, of their "masters". So what happened here? Evolution kicked in and all of us came to see it was wrong? And if they were wrong then what makes them right today?

As far as "genocide" is concerned, we apparently saw nothing wrong with turning a blind eye to Soviet genocide for 40 years. I ask again, upon WHAT, exactly, is the Constitution based?

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 7:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

earodc8 - One at a time here. First, Betthoven wasn't born deaf. He didn't begin to lose his hearing until he was 26 years old, so your point has no meaning by using him as an example.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Both Germany and Russia were aggressively secular, atheistic systems that savagely persecuted the Church."

Nazi Germany was not an atheist regime. Hitler was extremely religious, and used it to further his conquest of a "master race". So, that point is moot.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 7:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Back to Beethoven - His level of disability isn't even close to what I was talking about anyway. I'm talking about a fetus that is so badly disfigured that it will not ever even resemble a human, or in which the brain is so far underdeveloped that it would have no chance during its entire life of even reaching the cognitive skills of a newborn.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 7:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"I'll have to ask my cousin regarding the sentient abilities of spiders and mosquitos, but the casual way in which you compare them to humans in gestation is a little disturbing."

I didn't compare humans to insects. I compared human embryos to insects. At that point, a fully developed insect is actually more mentally able (not sentient), as it actually has a brain. As hard to conceive as you may find it, that's the simple biological truth. I guess, though, you'll argue that it (the human embryo) has a soul - something you or no one else could ever prove even slightly.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 7:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot, I am glad you and Pogmothoin are here. You keep me sane.

No they don't!

Yes they do, so keep your mouth shut!

sorry.

You bet your ass you're sorry.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 7:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - Thanks for the hysterical historical clarification. I am finding loads of factual errors and twisting of the truth in aerodc8's comments. This is what religeous fanatics do.

Back to aerodc8's comments...

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 8 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"What you fail to see, however, it is precisely because of the influence of Christendom in the West that made our moral system superior to theirs."

No, common sense and the right to freedom is what makes us superior in that regard. Have you ever heard of separation of church and state? I'm sure you have. However, when we try to meld the two, trouble always ensues, because it does not work at all with our right to freedom. You see, when you mix the two, you can only use one form of one particular religion. With Christianity, say, you would have to either go with a Protestant faith, or the Catholic faith, or Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Latter Day Saints, etc. This is completely insulting to all other forms of Christianity. That's not even to mention all other religions practiced in the U.S. That's why we have the system we have now - not based upon Christian morals, but based upon common sense morals which happen to be shared by Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, and most other religions (unfortunately, not all, but I won't go into that).

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 8:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"religeous" should have been "religious"

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 8:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way, two of our most famous founding fathers were, in fact, deists - Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - On the topic of the afterlife:

You indicate how bleak your life would be if you you had no afterlife to depend on. You need to loom forward to a city made of gold (Why? Wouldn't that render gold pretty worthless?) where everything is always perfect - no sickness, no arguing, no clogged toilet (because you won't need one I expect), just wonder and beauty and absloute perfection. Honestly, it all sounds very selfish to me. Why aren't you content with your life as it is? I am. I have accepted what is to came, and it helps me to appreciate what I have right now - Life.

I'll tell you why you need to cling to this dream - because the reality of death is a heavy thought to accept. The belief in the hereafter gives you the comfort you obviously need, whther it's actually there or not (and I'm saying it's not, but that's for each individual to decide for himself/herself). I really don't care what your beliefs are. If they make you happy, then so be it. I'm simply explaining that I'm fine with the idea of eventual non-existence. It will happen whether I want it to or not, so I choose not to worry about that which I absolutely cannot change.

Do you see my point? I'm not asking you to accept it, only whether or not you understand it.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - Someone has to keep the lighthouse lamp lit. I'm glad to do it. You can go back to sleep. You might want to wipe the drool off your cheek.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Two corrections: "you you" - should have only been one "you"

"loom" = "look" as in "look forward to a city made of gold"

Posted by OFD_Wife on April 24, 2008 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Aero blah blah blah
You are obviously one who can not be reasoned with. There are No excuses being made. Most professions have policies, procedures and protocols. I am so sorry you are not self employed because now I’m scared that you are in the public forum. Exactly what you say teachers should ignore, I ask if you would feel the same way if police and fire/paramedics did the same??? You need help, they respond but don’t like the dress you are wearing. Should they not attempt to help you, or for that matter, a family member of yours??? You are an incredible DB.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - "What a terrible thing wasted suffering can be! It can make us bitter and full of despair, or it can be offered up to Someone outside of ourselves who will take it and give it meaning, to ennoble us. It can destroy or transform."

I have had a few decent slices of suffering in my life, and the only ones to help me through it were very much human. Even when I practiced Christianity, Divine Intervention never even once occurred in my life (well, there was this one fine, hot, sweet thang, but I'm not sure she counts). These bad experiences have made me stronger and wiser. I'd rather have done without them, but there's no need to dwell on what I can't change, only learn from them in order to avoid them in the future. That's how I give them meaning and rise above them.

I'm not sure what you meant by "ennoble". The Japanese aren't Christian for the most part, but they are, in comparison, much more noble than your average American, so I don't see how God or any other deity makes a difference in how noble one feels.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - "If I ever saw an adult, in school or out, demonstrating to my son or daughter how to use a condom, especially having them put it on a piece of fruit or a vegetable, I'd beat the crap out of him."

What if the person demostrating the proper placement of a condom was a woman? Would you beat the crap out of her, too? The fact that you would have to resort to violence in any case to get your point across is hypocritical and in violation of the Christian religion ("love thy neighbor", "turn the other cheek", etc.). I thought forgiveness was supposed to be your way of life. Does the thought of rubber-encased friut scare you so much that you are willing to momentarily abandon your Christian ethics? It is actually what I would expect from someone like you (based on your posts) - a religious zealot. I firmly believe that Christ would be ashamed of that comment (yes, I do believe the man once walked the Earth). There have been so many with your frame of mind that preach Jesus' teachings, but don't apply any teaching that poses an inconvenience or disallows aggression. The name "David Koresh" comes to mind.

However, what does it matter? You don't have to worry about it, since you don't have any children, based on your previous comment:

"...if I were blessed with children..."

Maybe it would be best if things remained that way.

Posted by freethought on April 24, 2008 at 9:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - "Overall I'm actually enjoying this give and take."

Now, there's something on which we can both agree.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - Do you want to get me banned?

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshot - How can you not? Like an untreated bacteria or fungus, Pogmothoin just sort of grows on you (I mean that in the kindest way).

Posted by gramagracie on April 25, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Today some of the Mohave High School students will join other students across the nation in a Day of Silence to protest "discrimination, harassment and abuse" affecting lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students in school. Mohave High School is in Arizona, it is a small community but the parental support for tolerance is awesome.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

careful gramagracie - aerodc8 might feel the need to lecture you on how all those supporters are on a one-way trip the Camp Lake-Of-Fire.

Pogmothoin - Actually, I find that abscesses are more fun, but that's just me.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"trip to" not "trip the"

Posted by aerodc8 on April 25, 2008 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, our "justice" system strikes again - a gang of thieves known as government is putting Wesley Snipes in prison for not paying taxes. I was kind of hoping he might have beaten it. Anyone who goes up against the criminals in the IRS has my complete sympathy. Talk about the irony - government, which is really an organized crime family, participating in mass murder (abortion and undeclared wars), mass theft (high taxes), outright stealing of private property (eminent domain) and kidnapping (Texas religious sect as well as threatening to steal children from homeschooling parents) - is dealing "justice"!

Add to that the organized child molestation taking place in the public fools system and locking up younger and younger kids to "show how tough the judges are" while a hell of a lot of real criminals never see a day in jail, I mean, what a racket! Where do I sign up? Guaranteed pensions, special parking spots, immunity from being sued or held accountable if I screw up, what more could you ask for? On top of all that, when a kid falls by the wayside when I might have been in a position to do something about it but didn't have the balls to do so because "I was following regulations", and then I can blame it entirely on him because, as we all know, we must have "individual responsibility and accountability in our children" yakkity, yakkity, yak. Wheeee!

Never mind that this Texas thing was based on an alleged 16 year old girl who doesn't exist, claiming to have called about abuse. It may actually be a 33 year old woman who's done this before. And what a cute APC they used to enter "the compound". Now those kids are at the tender mercies of the state for their "protection". Anybody want to hazard a guess how many of these kids will be sexually abused in foster care? I shudder to think. But, you see, the state now has them, and God forbid they look foolish by admitting they were wrong. Once they have their hands on them they will never let go. God bless 'em!

What a great time to be "in the corrections industry", because that's exactly what it is, folks. The younger they get 'em, the more likely there'll be plenty of repeat business.

John Gotti was right - government is the biggest organized crime family of them all. I'll take John Gotti over the state house any day. At least, in their own perverse way, the Mob is a lot more honest about whose kneecaps they will break, unlike the state, which will break everybody's in one way or another. Also, unlike gangbangers, they usually hit their targets without blowing away toddlers on their tricycles. Put them in charge of the "gang units" and these punks will vanish very quickly.

I also want to thank the Ventura County Star for making this forum available. I am grateful for it and thanks again.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 1:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - Dude, you are all kinds of funny.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 2:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin - Don't be knocking Blade 1 and 2 (3 really did suck, though).

Posted by butterflygone on April 25, 2008 at 3:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If he's old enough to take someone's life, he's old enough to be tried as an adult. Do we really want someone like that back out on the streets again? Don't pity him because he's young. You should be more freightened that as a child he is capable of murder.

Posted by aerodc8 on April 25, 2008 at 4:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

butterflygone

All excellent points, but we should be consistent. He must be old enough to commit a consensual sex act with an adult as well. So, he should be allowed to have sex with his teacher. Next time one of those teacher-student sex scandals breaks, support the judge in letting the teacher go. After all, sex is an "adult act" as well as violence. If he can reason enough to commit one adult act then he should be cleared across the board. If you can go to prison for life at 14, then you should be able to shack up with anyone you please. Crazy? Perhaps, but no crazier than this rush to bulldoze kids this age into prison for decades.

mmshoot

I'm not mad at anybody. I'm just watching my culture around me every day and just wonder what planet I'm on. Wish somebody would beam me up.

Freethought, nobody ever accused the Gottis of either being particularly bright or having good taste. His wife sounds like one of Homer Simpson's sisters-in-law. But, he and his ilk were good at what they did. I still think we should hire the Mafia to take care of our "gang problem". Anyway, have a good weekend. Spend quality time with your kids.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aerodc8 - All I said was that you're all kinds of funny (really, you're keeping me in stitches here). I think you were meaning to pick on Pogmothoin this time.

You have a good weekend as well.

Posted by VOR on April 25, 2008 at 7:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TimeArrow, I just thought he might like to know that the school and Rainbow Alliance partnered on a rally to "remember Larry", which is ironic, since they helped kill him.

I agree with everything you said, another "Voice of Reason" in the crowd.

Posted by Face on April 25, 2008 at 7:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Stop! You are blinding me with science! Don't make me come down there and disrespect you with my insensitive white power.

Posted by NWord on April 25, 2008 at 8:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is just racism! This has nothin to do with sesual orentation! They just all wants the white boy scot free! That's right. Say all you want, anytime whitey kills a colored man, whiteys want him free. Colored man kills whitey? Dress, no dress, orentation, no matter what. That man goin to the big house know what I'm sane? Aint no trial no resucitiations. Yeah you know. It's all about pork, and puttin that mess in their hair whats done it.

Posted by freethought on April 25, 2008 at 11:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

NWord - I thought aerodc8 was the reigning comic here. It seems you got him beat hands down.

Posted by freethought on April 26, 2008 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin (and mmshoot) - I was poking fun at what seemed to be an attempt to insert controversy, but could also have been just for comedic purposes.

Don't worry, you and mmshoot are still my heroes.

(this is where we break into a verse of Kumbaya)

Posted by VOR on April 26, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Pogmothoin, " I see no irony in the school or the rainbow alliance sponsoring the memorial. These were probably the only positive influences in Larry's life." Give me a break!

The school that let him do what he wanted instead of following their own rules. Ignoring the bullying that went on. Not stepping in to stop it before it escalated. Yeah right, they did everything right and were a positive influence, it is obvious, how could I be so blind to the fact. Now I bet they are busy shredding files and formatting hard drives to cover up the mess.

As for the Rainbow alliance, what a piece of work they are. You take an impressionable kid and brainwash him with their agenda, get him to dress up and act out disregarding the dress code and rules of the school. What were they trying to do, use him as their posterboy? They had to know that it was dangerous if not destructive, shows no common sense and blind ambition on their part to push their agenda. If Larry was gay, great, no problem with that, although I hear there are doubts to the fact that he was actually gay. When you are in a situation like middle school in a blue collar community, where hormones and emotions run high, you don't flaunt your sexuality, you are there to learn the 3 Rs, do the other stuff after school away from school where it is more appropriate. Common sense would dictate that the heck with political correctness.

I saw a news interview of a young transgendered person that claims he was counselling Larry. This person had no credentials, no training, was a total piece of work and that is what the Rainbow Alliance gives as a positive influence. It made me sick to think of Larry being exposed to this person and letting him brainwash him.

So to answer back, no the school did not protect him, no, they did not provide a positive atmosphere, the are partially responsible for his death, as are the Rainbow Alliance. No matter how you or they try to spin it, they both messed up big time and I hope they held accountable.

Posted by moralygray on April 27, 2008 at 1:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Truly this is an emotionally charged & highly controversial issue. Hopefully our courts will be able to handle this from a practical & truly socially functional basis.

Posted by moralygray on April 27, 2008 at 1:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Although the defense is presenting research data that shows evidence that the adolescent brain is still developing in the areas of judgment. To believe this means his judgment is impaired is drawing a scientifically incongruous conclusion. The brain is far more complicated than that & drawing such a narrow meaning from that data would be irresponsible. Stimulating any area affects others as well & your brain will always continuously develop though out your life so long as you continue to stimulate it properly. There may seem in general a significant difference in development from our adolescent years as oppose to other stages in our life, but this could also be attributed to the fact that these tend to be our most formidable years of education. Once you’re an adult you can choose to no longer educate your self, but as a child or adolescent you have to go to school, hence forced stimulation thru out that stage, and as such there is a significant source of stimulation to foster more notable development.

Posted by moralygray on April 27, 2008 at 1:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It is a shame that there really has not been enough unbiased research done in the appropriate areas to answering the real questions that should be asked about this case? Although there probably is data available out there, to correlate it & the meaning is another thing entirely. The underlying important questions are not about what he merits or deserves. What are these questions? Well for one, what are the rates of successful rehabilitation of individuals this age that have committed such heinous crimes? What has been the most successful form of rehabilitation to that regard? Is rehabilitation affective when carried out in conjunction with punishment? Once tried, be it as a juvenile or adult, should he be punished & then have rehabilitation applied separately.

Posted by moralygray on April 27, 2008 at 1:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Although, he could be tried as an adult, there is not a mandatory sentencing of the 51yrs. That is just what could be carried out, but there is after all a sentencing hearing. If someone has the capacity to commit premeditated murder, do we really want to limit how long they could be kept from reentering society without insuring as best as possible, that he will not be capable of doing that again the next time he is really irritated or offended by someone. It is highly unlikely that he was in fear of the victim, so it is appropriate to most likely consider that he was offended or significantly irritated by the victim. So to somehow conclude that this could somehow even in an irrational or impaired judgment mind warrant premeditated murder, well now there in lies the rub doesn’t it?

Posted by freethought on April 27, 2008 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well said moralygray.

mmshoot - What you described is one hell of a balancing act that you seem to expect from parents. And you know what? You should. We all should. SImply put, being a parent is not easy if you do it right. I took on the job by doing everything I could to be ready for it before my eldest was born. Yet, I still wasn't, but my haert was definitely in the right place. I and my wife made a few mistakes along the way, but our kids have turned out fantastic thus far.

Basically, if you are not ready to make every conceivable sacrifice, including the ultimate sacrifice, then don't have kids. If you do have kids, please follow mmshoot's advice above. Hiding children from the darker underbelly of our society deos them and society absolutely no good. You owe it to your children to be prepare for what is out there.

Posted by freethought on April 27, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TheVeracious1 - Thank you.

mmshoot -
"Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Someones singing lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbayah"

Of course, "lord" for me refers to the real boss - my wife.

Posted by freethought on April 27, 2008 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Good job everyone. We were able to keep this topic in the top five most commented section for a full week (it was number one for about five days). Hopefully, we can consider it as a tribute to the memory of Larry King.

Posted by freethought on April 27, 2008 at 1:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - I think Reverend Marvin V. Frey (and also Peter, Paul, and Mary) would be proud!

Posted by freethought on April 27, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

mmshoot - You're going straight to hell for that one.

Posted by freethought on April 27, 2008 at 5:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, wait! Nevermind. I just remembered - I don't believe in hell.

Posted by freethought on April 28, 2008 at 7:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Who'd have thunk it? All this time, I was professing to be an atheist, when I was actually a Pasta-gas-or-something. Thanks for clearing up my life path Pogmothoin.

Posted by Stew_Pedasols on May 1, 2008 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I always find it difficult to understand how people try to cloud issues by blaming others or various institutions for the wrongful doings of others because of their prejudices and/or to draw attention away from their own guilty conscience.

it's also sad that people can go on a rant with little to no real information.

Posted by freethought on May 1, 2008 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I like carbs!

Posted by Glenn on June 16, 2008 at 8:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have researched schoolshootings across the country. Some common denominators are drugs (prozac, ritlin..)Excessive time on computors and bullying. This case was a Homosexual boy who taunted a Heterosexual who had an aversion to homosexuality. He retaliated by shooting the boy in the head. The other cases I read had Heterosexual kids who taunted Homosexuals, they reacted by shooting Heterosexual groups of kids, Athletes who harrased them or outed them, and Christians for being judgemental. My question is why all the people are so outraged at this shooting of a Homosexual boy (which was definatley wrong and tragic) but say nothing of the violence of Homosexual youths who shoot up groups of kids for the same reason. A double standard? I have heard about Mathew Shepard and this incident, but the other incidents where multiple deaths occured are not considered Hate crimes? In both cases the kids Hetero or Homo were wrong in there actions. But there seems to be a slanted veiw here.

Posted by DiAnna1 on February 17, 2009 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dear Readers, there is no excuse for a death ever but, these are things to consider.. I work in a school and see kids teasing and laughing at the chosen kid to bully. I see the devastation on their ashamed face. I stop it for the moment although i have no authority to do so in the OSD. The people who should put a stop to it at school do NOTHING AT ALL TO PUT A STOP TO IT. I imagine a young boy I don't know how he's life at home might have been but he may have been a victim of abuse. And had to put a stop to this Chasing and Teasing of not only the GAY BOY dressed like a girl but' the laughing of his piers. I Say The Schools should be charged as well its time schools take responsibility for what happens while school is in session.