Posted by hemlock1262 on October 29, 2007 at 6 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Masses, meet opiate.

Posted by GuideDog on October 29, 2007 at 6:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

“History,” Mark Twain once observed “is thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal.”

One such lie is a popular propagation of the religious right, namely: that this nation was founded as a Christian nation. The facts of history demonstrate something very different: the men who formed this nation were mostly “Deists” - members of a religion that emerged in the 17th and 18th century enlightenment - as well as other “freethinkers” whose disdain for all organized religion is well documented in their writings and speeches.

In fact, it was in 1831, five years after the passing of both Jefferson and Adams (the last of the founding fathers), the Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister and historian, would lament in a sermon: “The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels.”

Posted by wallace on October 29, 2007 at 7:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To the contrary, it is those on the secular left who preach divisiveness, including racial division.

"The facts of history demonstrate something very different: the men who formed this nation were mostly 'Deists'..."

In fact, that is a myth. For example, Thomas Jefferson himself attended Christian services held in the capitol. Some of the Founders would certainly be considered deists, but by no means all of them were.

Posted by GuideDog on October 29, 2007 at 8:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Along with Thomas Paine, the most fervent and outspoken advocate of Deism was Thomas Jefferson.

He was so bold as to rewrite the Bible. He called it “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth”, but more commonly known today as “The Jefferson Bible.” He completely did away with the Old Testament and everything in the New Testament other than the Four Gospels. In these four books, he edited out all passages referring to the divinity of Jesus and any events acts or miracles that were in opposition to the eternal laws of nature. He respected the core beliefs of Christ, but did not accept the deification that his disciples had invented for him.

Jefferson jealously guarded the right of inquiry of free minds especially at the school he founded, the University of Virginia. He opposed all attempts at censorship or discussion constraints that the clergy tried to impose. In 1800, he said the clergy “believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

On the question of the intentions of the founders relative to a religious character of this nation, Jefferson makes this clearest in his autobiography by his mention of a single event at the Constitutional Convention: “An amendment was a proposed by inserting ‘Jesus Christ’ so that (the preamble) should read ‘a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion’; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”

Posted by eng42 on October 29, 2007 at 8:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's what some of the founding fathers said-
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.
John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin,

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802,
Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson,

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."--Thomas Jefferson,

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests.
Thomas Paine

----- Original Message -----

Posted by GuideDog on October 29, 2007 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

For the record:

The historian, Reverend Bird Wilson, who believed nearly all the founding fathers were infidels, had many sources to verify his position and had an excellent, personal source: his father, James, who was a member of the Continental Congress, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and later a member of the committee that drafted the U.S. Constitution.

His would have been an up close and personal view of the people who would have included such Deist notables as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen. It also would have included such Freethinkers as John Hanc--- and approximately one-half of the congress who - like Hanc--- - were Freemasons.

Posted by Jacksprat on October 29, 2007 at 10:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

During all of the arguing while writing the constitution some one suggest that maybe start the day with a prayer. Ths suggestiong was turned down. The writes of the constution were wise men and did not want to bring religion into the goverment. We may be a country of christens, but we are not a christen nation. The constitution say so, so may of the writers knew about religion and goverment, since in many of the states there were goverment sponsered regilions and Rhoda Island refused to sign the constutition until the bill of rights with the freedom FROM religion, not freedom of religon

Posted by cassandra on October 29, 2007 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

What bugs me most about the extreme right's brand of Christianity is that they glom on to this multivaried and lenghy tradition for themselves, leaving out in the cold the Christian left which does indeed follow the example of Jesus--be it sheltering the afflicted or concern for the struggling poor.

I'm always struck by how much this writer's understanding of even his own religion is consistently shallow, biased and narrow.

Christianity could benefit by more folks like Erasmus or Pope John, who opened windows, or the martyred Archibishop Romero of Salvador and fewer Paulsons or Ratsingers.

Posted by shaver_one on October 29, 2007 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Please remember:
The God of Christianity,
The God of Judaism,
The God of Islam,
ARE ALL THE SAME GOD.

Posted by justdboy on October 29, 2007 at 12:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Shaver_one's comments reminds me of a Lazarus Long quote,

"“God split himself into a myriad parts that he might have friends.” This may not be true, but it sounds good--and is no sillier than any other theology."

In my own readings, over many years, I came to the conclusion that 'religion' is just another word for 'control'. The founding fathers knew this and sought to protect us from this.

Posted by wallace on October 29, 2007 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Putting up a few quotes, out of context, from the Founders doesn't for a second disprove the fact that the Judeo-Christian tradition is at the foundation of American history and traditions. The people of America in 1776 were overwhelmingly Christian, and that has remained the case throughout American history.

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." - George Washington

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson

"Of all systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813

"Our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be entrusted on any other foundation than religious principle, not any government secure which is not supported by moral habits... Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens." - Daniel Webster

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." - John Adams

Posted by cassandra on October 29, 2007 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

While we're quoting folks, I have a quote from my minister. She said, "If my religion does not affect my politics, there is something wrong with my politics or my religion."

Mine has been accused of asking folks to pray "to whom it may concern" as one of our co-religionists Garrison Keillor cracked wise. It requires no metaphysical certitudes, but only respect for persons and for the planet. We probably have more Buddhists, or even Pagans, and certainly more atheists, than Christians, but they are welcome as well.

If you get lonely for sane people and alert minds, Justdboy, you might try out out the UUs. I suspect you'd find it a comfortable fit.

Posted by GuideDog on October 29, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wallace:

Deism IS a religion that has as its basis reason and nature. Deists through their reason see a design found throughout the known universe and this brings them to a realization that there must be a Designer or God. Deists see no divine revelation in holy books. They have no need for preachers, priests, or rabbis as they believe morality comes from the proper application of reason.

Some Deists believe that God does not intervene in his creation although some do believe that he may occasionally intervene in human affairs. The only prayers that they say are for those of thanksgiving and appreciation. Deism teaches self-reliance and encourages people to constantly use their reason and “question authority” no matter what the cost.

As for George Washington: Washington was a very private man when it came to speaking about his personal religious beliefs. However, he did say that, “The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.” His believes did show themselves in his actions: He refused to allow any divisive sectarian rituals take place in the Continental army.

Also, like other Deists, he did not fear death, but looked upon it as just another part of nature. And so, unlike the Christians of his time, he made no mention of God in his will or in his dying words recorded by his personal secretary.

Ashbel Green, a Presbyterian minister who had known George Washington personally, is recorded as having sorrowfully said that “. . . Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, but like nearly all of the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist.”

Posted by justdboy on October 29, 2007 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Cassandra,

I have, a couple of times, assisted my wife as pulpit-hosts at the Santa Paula UU, where she is a board member. Jan C. delivered the eulogy at my father's memorial. Lex Crane officiated at our wedding.

My wife and I eagerly look forward to Keillor's UU jokes every Saturday evening.

Therefore, I have tried the UUs. As I tell my wife though, given my limited experience of only four years, the UUs I have encountered are more like, MEMEs. A general statement of course!

However, there is not much you can do with a pessimistic, surly curmudgeon of a pagan as me.

Besides, as old Lazarus says, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh".

Moreover, I get more out of one lone oak tree in the valley then all the gold in Rome.

Posted by cassandra on October 29, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

's cool, Justdboy. I enjoy your posts. This one included.

Posted by wallace on October 29, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What's relevant is not the personal beliefs of Washington, Jefferson, or the other Founders, which were varied and are debatable, but the place of the Judeo-Christian tradition in American culture and history. The centrality of that tradition is indisputable.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/Mi...

In 1776, for instance, General George Washington issued the following message to his troops: “The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary, but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The general hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.”

Two years later, Washington proclaimed: “The commander in chief directs that Divine service be performed every Sunday at 11 o’clock, in each brigade which has a Chaplain….While we are duly performing the duty of good soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of a patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian.”

Posted by GuideDog on October 29, 2007 at 2:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Judeo-Christian tradition and cultural is NOT the same as our system of government and is NOT a requirement to obtain citizenship or in the definition of a good Amercian.

Our government traditions (including separation of church and state) were largely the result of Freethinkers. Freethinkers questioned the religious authority of clergy and the holy books. This group included Deists, other liberal theists and, especially, the Freemasons.

It was in colonial America’s Freemason Lodges that Protestants, Jews, Deists, Unitarians and others who believed in God and liberty put aside their differences and focused on what they had in common. From these open rational minds came forth a fusion of the ideas of the Enlightenment and the most rational parts of the systems of law that had come before - especially the code of English Common Law (which actually predates English Christianity by 200 years). That fusion is now the system of laws that we have as our legacy from this dynamic time.

It is a fact: half of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Freemasons including John Hanc---. So were other heroes such as George Washington, The Marquis de Lafayette, Alexander Hamilton and Francis Scott Key.

Posted by justdboy on October 29, 2007 at 2:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

wallace,

I have no doubt that Washington would have made these statements. I only ask that you consider his audience.
A true "leader" knows their audience and addresses them in a manner and with the words to move them. To take the high moral ground will do just that with a less educated, less worldly audience. This does not make Washington a bad person; he just needed to keep his troops motivated.

This can have repercussions though if it is found you are just saying, "Do as I say and not as do".

Therefore, you can find all sorts of "Godly, Christ & Christian" statements and facts of church attendance from the founding fathers.

Posted by hemlock1262 on October 29, 2007 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Article 11. The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; [and] it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen [Muslims]."

Treaty of Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the United States Senate, June 7, 1797, and signed by President John Adams.

Presumably, the United States Senate and President John Adams, ratifying and signing a treaty only nine years after the Constitution was finally ratified, knew whether or not the Founding Fathers intended the U.S. to be a "Christian nation."

The answer, it would seem, is "not."

Posted by wallace on October 29, 2007 at 5:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Judeo-Christian tradition and cultural is NOT the same as our system of government and is NOT a requirement to obtain citizenship or in the definition of a good Amercian."

Since no one implied otherwise, that comment is entirely irrelevant.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli hardly negates the entire history of America from 1607 to the present, which is inseparable from Judeo-Christian traditions. Of course, "the government" and "the nation" are not synonyms.

Posted by hemlock1262 on October 29, 2007 at 7:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wallace completely misses the point.

The "entire history" of the USA is "inseparable" from Judeo-Christian tradition? So abortion, which is the law of the land, is "inseparable" from Judeo-Christian tradition? Wow -- that puts a whole new gloss on the whack-job abortion protesters! Haven't they familiarized themselves with "Judeo-Christian tradition"? Idiots!

And since the "entire history" of the USA is "inseparable" from "Judeo-Christian tradition," where do I sign up for the stoning of Craig, Gingrich, Vitter, and Giuliani -- adulterers all? (And isn't adultery a sin in "Judeo-Christian tradition"?)

And what about that "False Witness" Newt Gingrich bore against Bill Clinton, accusing Clinton of adultery while he, Gingrich, was humping his secretary?

And what about that weird judge in Alabama who seems to worship a statue of the Ten Commandments? Isn't Idolatry against Judeo-Christian tradition?

And what about Duke Cunningham, Republican, who stole money? Serving Mammon and not God -- isn't that against Judeo-Christian tradition?

Forget all that Judeo-Christian tradition nonsense.

There was no United States of America before 1776 and no government of the United States of America until the Constitution was ratified.

To say that "America" had a history from 1607 is not only irrelevant, it's wrong -- among other things, it "negates" (your word) the entire history of life on the North American continent from about a zillion b.c. to 1607 -- which life included quite sophisticated forms of political association and which were assuredly not "Judeo-Christian."

What is relevant is that one of the first official acts of the United States of America -- the corporate entity that is both "nation" and "government" -- was to state in as plain language as is humanly possible to muster, that this entity, the United States of America, is not a Christian entity.

Posted by shaver_one on November 5, 2007 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wasn't it the Christians that burned women, and stoned them to death, in Salem, as witches?
How tolerant, indeed!