Posted by AnnaWhaat on July 26, 2007 at 6:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

25,000.00 Doesn't seem like alot to me for the loss of someones life.

Posted by angrygirl8284 on July 26, 2007 at 9:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

AnnaWhaat, I agree with you. I guess it shows that his family is honest and not just trying to get their hands on as much money as possible.

Posted by surfmedic91 on July 26, 2007 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

AMR transports all patients. The city doesn't have any vehicles or fire trucks that transport because AMR has the monopoly on the contract. That's what Ventura gets for contracting out and not going back to having their own ambulances.

This is plain irresponsibility. Even with the rails on the gurney down, there is no way a patient should fall off unless he wasn't strapped in at all. I unload patients from Blackhawks without sides on litters/rickshaws here in Iraq with only 1 or 2 litter straps, sometimes none. We have never been close to a patient falling.

Posted by Hwy126 on July 26, 2007 at 12:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Surfmedic's comments are not accurate or fair. His comments imply that AMR and VFD personnel are somehow substandard or lazy, and that is simply bogus. So I think a little more detail is in order here.

AMR does not have a "monopoly". Ventura County is divided into ambulance zones and those zones were awarded by the COUNTY to the three ambulance service providers after a competitive bid process. AMR is the contracted provider for the City of Ventura.

At one time, Ventura City Fire Department attempted to provide ambulance transport services within its political boundaries; however, the city was outside its authority to do so (CA state law gives each County authority over its EMS providers, including ambulance services).

Posted by Hwy126 on July 26, 2007 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)

With regard to the case at hand: certainly it is a tragic situation for the patient and the family, and likely a preventable event. However, I think Surfmedic has made an incorrect assumption that Mr. Cardona fell off the cot. He could easily have remained strapped onto the cot and still sustained fatal injuries. One cannot compare an ambulance cot to a hosptial gurney, a litter, or a rickshaw. They all have their own particular design elements, applications, and operating concerns.

For those not familiar with ambulance cots, it should be explained that they are top heavy, especially at full height with a patient on board. Add any equipment, such as a cardiac monitor, and they get even less stable.

They are not perfect, but you have to consider what they do: they have to carry at least 650lbs , go up and down, fit in tight spaces, allow patients to lay flat, sit up straight , or go legs up (shock position), and
be loaded/unloaded from and ambulance quickly and safely. And they must be light enough to be operated by two people under routine conditions.

Due to a narrow undercarriage with high center of gravity, ambulance cots are prone to tipping or sudden weight transfer if directed in any sort of diagonal or sideways motion. This is a design concession because the cot must be narrow enough to fit in almost any conceivable hallway, doorway, stairway, elevator, and ambulance. The safest way to move them is to go in a straight line only, and if you need to turn one, stop or slow to a crawl. That frequently isn't the most practical thing to do, however.

Posted by Hwy126 on July 26, 2007 at 1:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Finally, ambulance cots have fairly small wheels that don't like anything but a hospital tile floor. They like clean, even, smooth surfaces. If you've ever caught a piece of gravel under your skateboard wheel then you'll understand what I mean. Unfortunately, the real world of EMS is far from ideal. Cots have to endure everything from beach sand to snow to cow pastures. Often you must lift them slightly off the ground to clear bumps, gravel, ruts, gopher holes, etc., which can induce instability.

If a cot began to tip due to one or more of the factors I've explained, gravity would quickly take over, and it would be very difficult if not impossible for the operators to regain control. Even a patient who is properly strapped in could strike their head, since the cot is narrow and has no head protection of any kind. The siderails are little protection either, since people instinctively reach outside the rails when they feel instability of any kind.

An old adage says "a poor craftsman blames his tools". I certainly don't blame the equipment here- it is an inanimate object and must be operated properly. But hopefully readers now have a better idea of the limitations of this equipment, and how exceeding those limitations could have serious consequences.

This is a very sad situation for all involved. I expect it will be resolved fairly. Certainly the Fire and EMS personnel who were there will never forget what happened, and have learned a great deal from this tragedy.

Posted by Hwy126 on July 26, 2007 at 1:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

With regard to the case at hand: certainly it is a tragic situation for the patient and the family, and likely a preventable event. However, I think Surfmedic has made an incorrect assumption that Mr. Cardona fell off the cot. He could easily have remained strapped onto the cot and still sustained fatal injuries. One cannot compare an ambulance cot to a hosptial gurney, a litter, or a rickshaw. They all have their own particular design elements, applications, and operating concerns.

For those not familiar with ambulance cots, it should be explained that they are top heavy, especially at full height with a patient on board. Add any equipment, such as a cardiac monitor, and they get even less stable.

They are not perfect, but you have to consider what they do: they have to carry at least 650lbs , go up and down, fit in tight spaces, allow patients to lay flat, sit up straight , or go legs up (shock position), and be loaded/unloaded from an ambulance quickly and safely. And they must be light enough to be operated by two people under routine conditions.

Due to a narrow undercarriage with high center of gravity, ambulance cots are prone to tipping or sudden weight transfer if directed in any sort of diagonal or sideways motion. This is a design concession because the cot must be narrow enough to fit in almost any conceivable hallway, doorway, stairway, elevator, and ambulance. The safest way to move them is to go in a straight line only, and if you need to turn one, stop or slow to a crawl. That frequently isn't the most practical thing to do, however.

Posted by medicb on July 26, 2007 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

surfmedic91 if you really want a city based EMS system than be ready to hand over your money to pay for it because a city based EMS is a tax payer service, it's payed for mostly with tax money while AMR on the other hand pays the county to serve Ventura like it does everywhere else, that makes it a free service to anyone who does not ride in an ambulance as a patient and does not raise taxes to provide the service. but if you are so inclined to fight for a city based service than remember to fight with the county because they are the ones that have oversight of who provides EMS where (CA law). and another thing patients falling of the stretcher happens a lot more often than people think. if the patient moves around while being taken to the ambulance, if s/he is uncooperative, if they dont do as we ask them to than they run the risk of falling. the only way we can strap them down tightly enough so that they dont fall off is way too tight for their comfort. what we dont know about this case is what really happened from the medics point, what was this patient doing when he fell off the stretcher, was he trying to fight the straps, was he cooperating with the medics? there are a lot of unanswered questions here. we cant be so quick to turn to the conclusion that it was the medics fault that the guy fell off, chances are that it was his own fault. i know a lot of the Ventura medics and they are great at what they do, they are not the kind of people that would neglect a patient. in my personal opinion the family just needs someone to blame and who better than the city which will probably settle without really looking into the case and what actually happened.

Posted by aaertc on July 26, 2007 at 9:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am DOMINGO CARDONA'S son, and my dad had 2 amputated legs due to diabetes, so when the paramedics put him on the gurney they could obviously see that he was off balance, and THEY DID NOT STRAP HIM IN OR PUT UP THE SIDE THE RAILS!!!! half way to the ambulance my dad fell off head first hitting the concrete and thus breaking his neck!! so medicb stop trying to defend the careless paramedics that killed my dad how stupid could they have been not to do have put up the side rails or strap himn in, there is no excuse in the world that I would accept why this wasn't done

Posted by aaertc on July 27, 2007 at 12:01 a.m.

(This thread was removed by the site staff.)

Posted by bwall on July 27, 2007 at 4:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What idiots to not strap him in!! I wonder why such a low amount to sue them for?

Posted by AnnaWhaat on July 28, 2007 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hwy126,I agree with you that Im sure they will never forget this. And hopefully take better precautions next time. Its a terrible tragedy !

MedicB,I do disagree with the fact that you state it could be the patients fault. When that ambulance lays you in that (bed) I will call it. Then they are then in charge. To say it may have been his fault I dont fall for that. They were totally responsible for him at that point.
aaertc , I totally agree with you! They were negligent pure and simple !!!!! I am so sorry for the loss of you Dad. My prayers are with your family. And I agree that you probably should sue for more money !!!!! Your Dads life was worth alot more then that. God Bless !!!!

Posted by aaertc on July 30, 2007 at 5:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I want to thank the people who had positive comments towards my family and I, there are alot of negative comments from people (especially paramedics) making it seem that these wonderful people couldn't do no wrong or be negligent well, **** happens, and unfortuanetly it did to our family, we didn't expect my dad to die this way, i was not ready to say good bye to my dad. we cannot discuss alot about the case but the $25,000 was just a figure that had to be out there, alot of you guys said WOW only this amount, no way i would ask for a trillion dollars because that was my dad's life that was so horribly taken away.by the way , at this same time there is the same situation with another family in Los Angeles, somebody elses father fell off of a gurney due to negligence.

Posted by AnnaWhaat on July 30, 2007 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

aaertc, Thankyou for the update. And I understand the situation of not being able to say much! I truly pray that all goes in your favor. Not for the money BUT that this may save someone else's family member from an untimely death. Again my prayers will continue to be with you and your family. God be with you all and know your Dad is looking down on you. And one day you will see him again.
And I do believe the ones who had negative comments knew about this and they were defending the EMT's of the county. Its really sad to defend something when they know darn well the EMT's were totally at fault. Its just not right. Makes me think twice about next time I have to call an Ambulance.